Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[Robert]

This map is one of the best diplo maps I have played on. The size is the only thing that is not perfect. And 1 of the other continent civs might have been better on ours. That's all.

Civs with players who remained:
Portugal
Maya
Sparta
Khmer
Metalheads
Spain
America
England
Celts
Holy romans
Wyandots

Till their end::
Persia
Korea
Japan

Long lasting new players:
Rome
Russia
Vikings

Other:
Inca


have

[Pitboss Spain]

I have a criticism of my lands is that I only have a small two tile river and that is the only river I have in my main continental lands, compared to Kmher, which has numerous rivers, which is why he is so powerful.

@Friendly Fire, I am classical_hero. Some people thought I was a female, because of how well y stories were when I really posted stories.

[Robert]

Some people thought I was a female, because of how well y stories were when I really posted stories.

Those days are about to return soon!!

[Pinchak]

I have a criticism of my lands is that I only have a small two tile river and that is the only river I have in my main continental lands, compared to Kmher, which has numerous rivers, which is why he is so powerful.

I have stated this numerous times... I attempted to make the map fair through many different means.

You may not have rivers Spain, but look at how much land you started with!

Khmer started in the middle of a jungle! This ment he was almost forced to get iron working early, and build alot of workers.

To the cramped northern tribes of Medula... I'll admit you probably have the least land, my appoligies. Had I more time to fine tune the map this might have been remedied. However, the Metals are doing well, and they are completely land locked.

I don't want anyone to take this as a personal insult, but I think it is human nature when you are not doing well at something to blame the cards you were delt. Ozzy is a top notch player, and even though he arguably got a bad starting spot, he is doing well with it.

Are all the starting spots completely even? No

Did anyone get totally and completely screwed with their starting spot? No

And if you look at game generated maps, you will find the same.

[Robert]

I don't want anyone to take this as a personal insult, but I think it is human nature when you are not doing well at something to blame the cards you were delt.

That's true.
It muts be said though that the map-complaining is minimal.
Of course someone says something now and then, but I haven't heard anybody complain a lot!

[St Jon]

I don't want anyone to take this as a personal insult, but I think it is human nature when you are not doing well at something to blame the cards you were delt.

That's true.
It muts be said though that the map-complaining is minimal.
Of course someone says something now and then, but I haven't heard anybody complain a lot!

Looking at the old posts the original russian player quit over his so I don't think it's quite true to say nobody complained. Looking at the map though it is good apart from no east-west sea route. If I were starting on this map I'd have loved to be in the peace and quiet of New Sparta or New Portugal.with noone to bother me. Maybe that's why I play Tiny Islands setup in SP so much?

[Robert]

I don't want to say anything negative the 'old Russian player' since I think it's an awesome guy, but he actually never finished any diplogame while he was in 5 at least

[OzzyKP]

I don't want to say anything negative the 'old Russian player' since I think it's an awesome guy, but he actually never finished any diplogame while he was in 5 at least

That's not true. He has never left HOTW12.

[Pitboss Spain]

Some people thought I was a female, because of how well y stories were when I really posted stories.

Those days are about to return soon!!

Hey, I am no one's b!tch.

[St Jon]

Hey, I am no one's b!tch.

Maybe someone's pussycat?

[Pitboss Khmer]

Some people thought I was a female, because of how well my stories were when I really posted stories.

Maybe you are just in touch with your feminine side.

Yes, I thought you were a woman.

[St Jon]

Cyber, Please let me answer your PM in public.

Paranoia
Hey Friendly Fire,

When I eventually had to play my move it was close to 0200 BST. What does that make it in Budapest - something between 0500-0600? Does everyone in Hungary have a sleep disorder?

Japan and me were in the game till around 01.00am our time.

Cyber I can read a clock as well as anyone and I do know how timezones work so that is an ouyright lie.

You are quite correct, and mzprox at least had read enough of the 6hr double move rule to know that you cannot login, logout and then login again to finish your turn in war.

japan did not login, logout and login again.
Please check civstats.

You obviously failed to read my original post. What I said was:~

mzprox at least had read enough of the 6hr double move rule to know that you cannot login, logout and then login again to finish your turn in war.

Hence you accuse me of making an accusation never made!

So you show great kindness by coaching a new player in how to stay within the 'letter of the law' whilst converting, where convenient to you, a PitBoss game into a TCP/IP game!

????

In TCP/IP I would expect simultaneous moves and allow for them. why suggest remaining logged in unless, as you well know, to have logged out would de facto mean end of turn in war? This is a means that we all could employ, given unlimited free time and a spare PC, to play to a convenient point and then wait to resume after we know what hase happened.

This was a pre-planned stitch up by you which has put me hopelessly out of position.

It was not, I didn't knew that this guy was going to sub at all. I had the intention to conquer Japan totally. Then he showed up.

I said at the beginning on the 'New player looking for game' Thread that no new player should be introduced until after the end of the Persian War! I don't know how Ozzy would have played it in terms of capitulation but I am certain he wouldn't have logged in for so long just to wait for me on your advice.

don't be that paranoid

I'm not, I know you're out to get me! It's the method not the goal I object to!

What are we all to do? Login at the beginning of each turn and watch 19hrs of nothing happening just in case we can pull a flanker on someone? Do we just decide that someone can bore another player into not playing their turn at all is a legitimate tactic?

This has already been addressed by my new-rule suggestion.
Don't be paranoid. Japan just stayed for a long time in the game to talk to me.

He needed 3hrs without you even online? This is specious nonsense and an insult to the intelligence of an ant with severe learning difficulties!

He wanted some explanation of diplo gaming and he wanted to sign peace with Sparta.
That's why he stayed that long in the game.

Same as above - where was the chat going on until I actually logged in?

Yes, that is not a good thing, but it was not against the rules because we had never thought about a situation where someone would stay long in the game.

That's why I suggested this rule change.
Perhaps you should just support that change instead of being all paranoid about me.

No way! You've tried that trick, and succeeded, before. You cannot retrospectively alter rules. If it was legit when you did it how can you suggest that it suddenly becomes improper for someone else to do later?

Another lesson learn't. How to avoid having the turn before war as being included in the double move rule. Very clever, you don't declare war you just blame 'game mechanics' and it makes everything all right?

????

Just how far advanced were your forces immediately before 'Game Machanics' forced war?

This had nothing to do with the double move rule.
The turn had started more then 6 hours ago already. Everybody was free to move and do whatever they wanted!

I didn't suggest it was - except who will ever know who made the last move? What I did say was that I deliberately did not use the 6hr rule and move because I felt it would be unfair on a new player. I did not even know if there was going to be consensus about a new player until the 6hrs had alapsed.

This was not an attempt to ben the rules.
It was just an in-game explanation for this war

.

That is total rubbish. That could have been done over a couple of emails or PM's.

Helping a new player is one thing but to use their lack of surety of the rules to pursue your own 'in game' aims is an utter disgrace.

My in-game aims were conquering all of Japan.
Your in-game aim was conquering all of Piercia.
Now we both fail at that aim.

That was no sort of rebuttal to my statements regarding your conduct in this matter.

Declaring war on Russia was defenitely not my in-game aim.

That really is beside the point, that is actually an IG issue, as I am not interested in the 'whys' of the issue but the 'means'.

This may not be out and out cheating but it is bloody close to it!
Please chill, there's nothing close to cheating here.

You are just upset that you now have to fight against Sparta if you want to get all of Piercia.

That's such a shock to you that can only conclude that you're being screwed over, which you're not.

The moment Japan was kicked I knew I had no quick war and that Sparta would become interested. No surprise again just 'means' rather than 'motivation'

So what are you proposing as host and arbiter? That we retrospectively change the rules so that it can never happen again but you still get what you wanted?

We cannot change the rules for the past, only for the future, as the result of the lesson we have learned from the past.

I return to retrospective rule changes. If it was alright for you to do it why should it be wrong for me to do it next turn?

I won't ask for a Pause amd Re-Load as they will not suit you and are therefore worthless requests!

There's no reason at all for a pause or a reload. No rules have been broken, nobody has cheated, or whatever.

You don't think this worthy of a pause? I didn't think you would which is why I didn't bother to even request one!

If there would be rule breaking then I would pause and reload against all of my desires.

Historia est vitae magistra

My respect for you has waned to say the least!

You should not make such remarks based on wrong facts and anger.
Try to chill and think twice before you post such things.

If you have reasons to believe there was cheating, do your research and post the facts.
Don't post such posts based on feelings and anger.

True I am cross about the way you have done this - very pissed-off indeed - but for you then to deny anything was wrong in the first place but that we should change the rules so that it cannot happen again is cant hypocracy of the highest order!

Please Friendly Fire, try to calm down!

You should see me angry!

CyberShy

[Robert]

It is NOT allowed to post PM's in public. That's why I have deleted your post.
It's soft-deleted and can be placed back. I'll consult Ming about it.
I answered you in private because I don't want another public fight.

I will once again answer you in private.

Everyone who wants a copy of this can ask me or FF. (or a copy of any other pm regarding this issue)
I just want to keep this paranoia from the game threads.

FF is of course free to post aything he wants, just don't post private message from others.

[St Jon]

Censor all you want but the the old saying is still holds true, 'Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit'!

[Robert]

On 2nd thought I have moved it to this debate thread.