Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[St Jon]

Cyber/MMC,

I do suggest, let me correct that to 'sincerely request', that we end this NOW as a public debate! It helps us not one iota and just invites the scorn of others in the forum. This is my final post to this thread and request that further debate, if any, is conducted by PM.

We have wasted the time of independent judges by supplying incomplete evidence and no copy of the rules we play under, very nearly ruined the game totally, lost one of the most active and creative contributers to the thread despite having the most hopeless Civ, provided the final straw to Persia - yep Japs I got the Civ wrong sorry - to cause her to quit, left a legacy of distrust so that I felt it neccessary to seek outside advice as to interpretation of 'our rules' before looking toward any future actions I might make so that I could at least have something to present as an arguement to, at the least, force a pause while it were discussed and fiinally(regretably) resulted in a situation where after all this time we are still debating a now dead issue.

My excuse for acting, rather inaction, in the way I did was that this was my very first game of pitboss and it all exploded inside a month of me joining. I knew neither the rules or etiquette to properly follow the issue and was left as much in the dark as any outsider might have been. All I saw was a hostile Capo and Pinchak versus a nice and reasonable Cyber. Right and wrong seemed very easy to decide on the issue but I may have been wrong. That knowledge is part of the fallout of this sad episode.

MMC, what is your excuse? You now speak but said nothing at the time and have no claim to inexperience so why did you not support the only genuinely fair and just solution when there was still time? Sorry to be harsh but as a very experienced pitboss player you must have known then what you know now!

So what now? Further public debate will serve us nought and only utter surrender by Cyber to a reload, as well as Persia rejoining in 1630 would allow an independent Korea under Capo to take part again - even then still unlikely.

Too much has passed now for any number of judges to look at everyone's moves to check we are playing the same moves. More than that would all of us believing Maya/Korea victory a possibility have been able to discount the south? Would Rome/Russia/Wyandot have acted in the same fashion knowing that Persia would soon disappear? Would Russia have attacked a Roman city had it known that it was part of a previous agreement that it should be established?

Let us PLEASE have an end to this. I think it already too late now but the simple choice is re-load to 1630 and take it from there, only if we have an independent Persia as well as Korea, or we stop all this nonsense and get on with the game as is and close this self-pleasuring* thread regardless!

FF

* If none else gets it I trust that you will MMC

[Rasputin]

The issue of the past is over, but hopefully you have all learned a valuable lesson and that is a Pause is an absolute must . Sadly it is the most experienced dipl gamers that have either been too quiet on this whole issue or actvily asking for the game to continue.

also when it comes to debates like this. all discusion should be done in the open and not by the Anon Logins.

Two reasons for this.
1. The seasoned diplo gamers with experience can state their experiences and why they beielve in certain solutions to problems
2. it prevents in game repercussions on anon civs for any statements etc.

[St Jon]

Russia agrees with Rome

Cyber,

I do think if this is to continue it must be taken off the Org Thread, as previously stated, as it is now an arguement.

This Japanese freebie has totally distorted the game ratings. I know this is Diplo and therefore only 25%pts come from the game itself but it even if Russia has no chance Rome and others, including Sparta, do! I feel well and truly stitched up and I can well understand why Celts do to. They stand no more chance of winning than Russia but they deserve a fair chance to do the best they can. It's not their fault they started in a cramped continent any more than that Russia had awful land and a patch of AI rule to deal with! I will fight as hard as I can IG and accept my losses but I cannot compete when the rules are interpreted to convenience! The Game was not delayed over Persia it was just Japan says 'Give it to me so I won't be in last place!' and there it was - done and dusted! It was only Wyandot demanding the cities they had built for Persia and me kicking up a fuss that caused even a small 'debate'! Wyandot got 1 decent city and a border outpost - I was offered 2 cities in NP and 1 in NS to keep quiet and let things move on. I never really wanted NS - you can surely see why - but the NP cities were worth something to me. The Gold has not been shared and I am to very suspicious of the Tech as your first suggestion was that Japan become Portugal and go the other way round collecting the Japanese cities.

Japan suddenly has 750+ Gold, how? Japan a tiny power, 'always in last place' has suddenly achieved a massive Tech lead over any of the Civs she has overtaken and some unknown to those immediately above, how? The arguement that Japan was a founder member of the game and so deserves to be treated well is not good enough! Your arguement that Russia is still twice the size of Japan holds no water for my largest city is 16 and never likely to grow much larger before the end game as without the resource to build the universities and stock exchanges Russia's fate has already been sealed.

I may not be able to prove it here but I can play this game but only given an even playing field. This soonest fixed quickest mended menatlity, sorry very English, is just not right, fair or just!

Just demand, and you can demand Cyber, that Japan hands over the 750g and give Russia what it was promised and I will accept, not happily, this deal. If not, I will not threaten to leave but will know that in future I must be very careful when playing against people who are all old friends.

Maya/Korea I have always regarded as different from Persia. No offer has been yet made by Maya regarding old Korean Island cities but I cannot see any objection. They cannot really need or want them as basically they are of little worth and must just be a tax drain. More than that they are just about impossible to defend with 90% of the Maya fleet sunk so if anyone really wanted them they could be taken at small cost and no fear of reprissal.

[Robert]

Did Japan promise 750gold ooc to Russia? (as a part of the deal)
Then that should be paid. If not, then deal with it IC.

[Pitboss Japan]

Did Japan promise 750gold ooc to Russia? (as a part of the deal)
Then that should be paid. If not, then deal with it IC.

The ONLY promise I made to Russia was for the settler and 2 workers that will be at NS soon. it is traveling down spartan coast so cs can varify.

[St Jon]

Did Japan promise 750gold ooc to Russia? (as a part of the deal)
Then that should be paid. If not, then deal with it IC.

I am sorry but this really goes too far! You can see that my post is titled 'Russia agrees with Rome' which must give you an idea that there was a Rome post for me to agree with! You cannot transfer 1 post and also interpret it as you choose. There are over a dozen posts on these issues and yet suddenly mine alone gets transfered. I did put 'I do think if this is to continue it must be taken off the Org Thread, as previously stated, as it is now an arguement.' as a repeat of what I had said by PM that if this Thread were not to be closed then the arguements over Persia/Korea were better here than on the Org Thread. 'As previously stated' alone should indicate that this was not a one-off demand for this post alone to be transfered.

Know that I will not be made a scapegoat for this! I am not responsible for poor decision making on the part of others. I never claimed Japan owed me 750g or promised it to me but it is yet another example of the eniquity of this entire deal.

I said it by PM:~ Very simple. You like Japan so Japan gets Persia without pause or debate. You don't like Maya so you look for a sub for the worst Civ in the game and when one cannot be found, surprise indeed, you pause to sort out Maya/Korea merger? Yes, Rome/Russia have every right to want a few Korean islands but none of them are really worth anything. This is worthy of a pause and yet you say that cities I was promised as part of a deal to keep me quiet, over Japan getting Persia as a freebie, and never delivered are a matter to be dealt with IG?

This is appalling behaviour on your part! I am very disappointed.

For those interested in this nihilistic Thread this is what I was agreeing with:~

I'm sorry Cyber but your posts on the Piercian and Maya situations are just distortions, and show a complete failure to grasp the situation.

Yesterday when I expressed my unhappiness you said

Originally Posted by Cyber Shy
Rome: the game was paused and we talked about the Maya thing.
The game resumed when everybody (who spoke up) agreed.
but go back and actually read the thread!

I was one of the few who replied and I did not give unconditional support. I said:

Originally Posted by Pitboss Rome
Regarding Korea/Maya. For Rome IG a stronger Maya is not a good thing, but even so I agree that Maya should absorb Korea.

There is an island Korea and I share, right at the south of the world - the Korean city there (very weak and undeveloped) would fit well with Rome.

Also there is a Korean city (or two even) on New Portugal - I think that these would go well with Russia and might give them some compensation for the fact that they didn't get the land from Piercia that they should have done.
which you agreed with!

Originally Posted by Cyver Shy
Ok, so far nobody is opposing Maya to grab Korea.
Rome's suggestion regarding the Korean cities on NP sound good to me.
So what we had was a conditional acceptance of the Mayan take over of most of the Korean territory, but not a complete permission for Maya to do just as it wanted. But Maya has just done what it wanted, and you're not interested. Maya just ignores the discussion of the issue in this thread and so gets away with what it wants. Just as when he doubled moved in war time against me, putting macemen close to a hardly defended city, it was agreed this was wrong, but Maya just ignored the situation and carried on.

Similarly on the Piercian issue you say things on here like of the 8 Piercian cities Japan only got 5, and that the only people who expressed an interest in the Piercian terriroty were Japan and Russia, BUT you happily ignore the fact that Portugal gained 2 of Piercians cities, and that if you look at it in terms of population, production etc. Japan got 95%+ of Pierica including all the gold (and it looks to me the technology).

You gave control of Pierica to Japan, and Korea to the Maya, without getting it clear what woudl happen, and even when there were understandings of what would happen which have been ignored once Japan and Maya are in the driving seat, you ignore the situation and say ridiculous things on here like territory in NS is good for Russia (when its about 25 turns sail away) and forget that Portugal was a beneficiary of the demise of Piercia in a effort to make it sound likes its all ok.

I know you wish it would all go away. I know that you were well-intentioned in trying to get these solution for Korea and Piercia and were doing it while still realing from the previous dispute. And I know that once again we are in the world of 'its too late'. But it does stink and continued to undermine any sense that this is a game - its seems more a battle of egos and for power between those players who already know each other in which the rest of us, and ideas like 'fairness' and 'reasonableness' have little place. IG I'm all for people using whatever tactics and trickery they want, but I thought OOC was meant to be different.

Please see BtP Org Thread V for the original as I am not good enough on this to get all the sub quotes in but that was Rome's post that I was agreeing to!

This is all very wrong indeed.

[Pitboss Maya]

Firstly I will say that I haven't really had time to even post a story regarding the assimilation of Korea by Maya, let alone address these OOC concerns. I was not purposely avoiding the issue. I'll address my them now.


Regarding the Korean island city, I will give it to Rome in order to avoid another OOC fight, although I hardly find the wording used to be "conditional". It is indeed too bad that a land strapped civ didn't get this island city, as Rome already has several overseas ports.


Regarding Persia, this was handled VERY poorly I must say. Two major points to be made here...

1. Portugal should have NEVER been given any of those cites. How this happened boggles my mind.

2. Japan should have NEVER been allowed to transfer Persian tech while acquiring those cities. This goes beyond mismanagement of dividing up an abandoned civ. This is flat out cheating by the Japanese player. Seeing as we don't like to reload turns to right wrongs around here... I suggest that Japans current technologies are assessed, and that they become "common knowledge", meaning that anyone can receive them without using a voucher or voltan. This will not only help keep the game relevant for lower score civs, but will also help to negate the underhanded advantage gained by Japan.

3. Why again didn't Russia get any Persian cities???

[Rasputin]

oh and for information Friendly Fire. Japan is not an original player , the origina ljapn player left.

This player was invited to join by some one. that some one now alludes my memory.

[The Capo]

I know I'm not in the game anymore (but I am still following it, as I follow all diplogames) but I totally agree with the Mayan player on this issue. I still think you guys should have waited a month or so to try and replace the empty slots. MMC's proposal of a period of "down time" had a lot of merit in that it would have cooled down the issues following the dispute I was part of.

It seems like a precedent was established (i.e. to continue quickly rather than make a good deliberate decision) by the decision to continue the game following the Greek double-move scenario and that, once again, it proved to be a bad precedent. Personally I think that Piercia should have been split into Wyandot and Russian territory. It would make the most storyline sense. As far as the Korean country goes; the most sensible thing would be for the Maya to annex Korea and then for the Maya to decide who gets what "overseas" territories. Its unnatural just to divy up the land with no explanation at all. I don't see a good reason to give any Korean land to Rome at all. At least a good justification (in-game/story terms that is) should be made beyond OOC terms.

But another thing I want to say to new diplogamers, which may help their resolve a bit more; Rome you are correct that there are a lot of "veteran" diplogamers here (I do not use that term the same way the Maya did in their post, I just mean veteran as in "long-time" players). But in general they don't operate by ignoring the new players. At least I don't do that. This type of stuff does happen often in Diplogames (by that I mean arguments that can get quite personal) but usually the dust will settle and eventually we wind up playing together again. You shouldn't be discouraged by this game, there have been PLENTY of great games that go by with little to no arguments. There's always some type of problem in all games, but you really shouldn't feel that Diplogaming is flawed because of this. If anything it means that players care about what happens. Granted, I am saying this after leaving the game, and of course some other players who have been around a long time have quit this game as well (Vampeglus, Heraclitus, Ras etc.) but you can rest assured they would and will return for future games.

Honestly, I think you guys should start thinking if its worth continuing this game at this point. I really think that, now that we've experienced these problems, a new game should start up from scratch so everyone has a chance to start their own civs. Less players is probably another thing that should be considered as well, and perhaps a smaller map as well. Just some ideas.

[Rasputin]

and goodie huts... maps need goodie huts

[Robert]

@Piercia: Like I said before: yes, this was handled poorly in the vacuum just after the 'big fight'.

Japan: did you got techs from this? If so, which techs?
All: let's wait for Japan to respond to this. Give Japan the opportunity to explain

To Russia: I won't say that things are fair now, but since there was an agreement, I say that we stick to that agreement. We cannot first agree only to change opinion a few turn later and disagree again.

If any ooc-conditions for the Japan/Piecia aren't met (apart from the ones Japan is currently executing) then speak up.
If all conditions are met, then we must accept that we have an agreement to which everybody lived up.

If I'm wrong about this agreement, please show this by linking to msgs.
-------------

Regarding Maya: thanks to Maya for cooperating.
We must discuss the Japan-techs issue indeed. Let's first wait for the answer from Japan before we make accusion that aren't true.

--------------

Conclusion: we have made two agreements. Maybe not the best agreements during the best circumstances, but we did so. Now everybody must live up to these agreements and accept them. Or show how these agreements were factually different then now being executed or displayed.

Once again I repeat: I do not pick a side regading 'who got an unfair deal and who got too much' eventhough I think that everybody agrees that Japan and Maya have been very lucky. (though Spain, Wyandot, Rome and Russia also got free stuff!!!).

I just rule now based on ageements that were made and I insist that we respect agreements.

[Pitboss Portugal]

1. Portugal should have NEVER been given any of those cites. How this happened boggles my mind.

Maya you need to keep track of the posts, the cities aren't Portuguese anymore, they have been given to Spain. Portugal never wanted the cities for itself, if i wanted it i could have had the whole land for myself ages ago. They were promised to Spain (which was part of an age old deal).

It is very simple: Portugal gave the land to Piercia, so I find it somehow important to say who gets to have it now.

P.S I would appreciate it if you stop this blame game.

[St Jon]

@Piercia: Like I said before: yes, this was handled poorly in the vacuum just after the 'big fight'.

Japan: did you got techs from this? If so, which techs?
All: let's wait for Japan to respond to this. Give Japan the opportunity to explain

To Russia: I won't say that things are fair now, but since there was an agreement, I say that we stick to that agreement. We cannot first agree only to change opinion a few turn later and disagree again.

If any ooc-conditions for the Japan/Piecia aren't met (apart from the ones Japan is currently executing) then speak up.
If all conditions are met, then we must accept that we have an agreement to which everybody lived up.

If I'm wrong about this agreement, please show this by linking to msgs.

What I was offerred, Japan refused to even talk about mainland Persian cities and nobody was interested, was 2 NP cities and 1 NS city. I accepted this as I was fighting alone on this issue with only Ozzy posting that it was too hasty. It was not just hasty it was bull-dozed! Haviing agreed, to avoid another Maya/Korea/Sparta stand-off - I was accepting a loss already just to stop the arguement. Then when payment time comes I find that the 2 cities on NP that could have been useful to me had never really been on offer at all as already given to Portugal! I end up left with 1 size 1 city on an island that has only 1 route to get to from Russia, and thst relies on passing through a Spartan city, which will take nearly 30 turns to reach by Galleon. Can you be surprised at me being disappointed? Yes we had agreed but when it came to signing 2/3 of the deal had been pulled.

You are right Cyber, I have said this so many times, I could still have just refused point-blank and we would have had to undo all the transfers so far and resurrect Persia. Very hard and requiring a sub to do properly. So I accepted a duff deal just to try and allow the game to get moving. I still felt it wrong but without backing I am just 1 player holding up everyone else's fun! You know the posts Cyber, you were even the arbiter, and you justified it to me by PM saying that Japan deserved it because they had stayed in all the way through the game despite being weak and had made such a major contribution to the storyline. Regarding the gold there was always a tacit agreement that Persia's wealth would be shared amongst the other nations on the continent and Persian Tech was specifically ruled out of any part of the bargain. If that has been broken then that is a very serious issue, not covered by any rule, but totally against the spirit of the game and a betrayal of trust.

Still it was all a done deal and I had accepted and went on doing the best I could but then Maya/Korea comes along suddenly others do wake up and start complaining. I did at first say 'forget it' and let things move on but the posts keep coming so I put my views on the table again - still saying that even though I had got a raw deal it was all over now.

I never opposed Maya/Korea as it's the only logical solution for the storyline and for the game itself. Maya didn't agree to hand over the islands and cities only to look at them. I don't think it outrageous that Rome/Russia should benefit to some extent although using Korean cities on NP as a pay-off to Russia for a deal never honoured by Japan is not really justice at all. I cannot see how Maya can object too much about Rome's request or to giving a few little islands to Russia. Really, however this only amplifies the injustice of what Japan got. Mayan gains might be larger in land area but the cities and lands themselves are poor at best and must be costing a fortune to run.

Long term Maya will benefit but Japan has benefited now by increasing in land by over a 2/3 and doubling it's population. When gold and tech get added in on top the whole thing just goes crazy. You can see the difference in value of the gains on the stats page. Maya has got well under 100 for all of Korea but Japan - for just 5 cities - jumps over 300 and leapfrogs as far up the score list as to overtake HRE and Russia! Those were not just little nothings of cities and points don't just come from population alone!

Maya please consider the very modest requests made by Rome/Russia. NP was never part of the original request made of you so, even though I'd like them, I make no pretence of a pre-existing claim. You have inherited some rubbish that I cannot believe will hurt you to give up and you have to accept Rome's genuine concerns over the longer term gains that will come Maya's way making her entire southern coast very vulnerable.

So let's have the Gold given to one of the minor powers that got nothing at all out of these deals, 750g at last count, from Japan. The Mayan treasury is pretty empty and I cannot imagine them transfering anything from Korea anyway. Maya, let's have a reasoned discussion, IG/OOG, on Romo-Russian requests for some land re-distribution. Most important of all let's hear the truth regarding the alleged tech transfers - the gold was bad enough - that may have taken place.

[Robert]

I'm working out a deal with Japan through PM now.
I'll look at the history of your agreement, Russia.

Your efforts to be cooperative should not let you end up with the downside.

[Robert]

For the record: Maya has agreed to hand over that island city to Rome.
As far as I know things have been settled there. Am I wrong? Rome, can you confirm?