Sigh.... Still no word on another patch.

[Wiglaf]

Uhhhh... what are you talking about. Nobody pays for promotions. If you mean upgrades, and not promotions, you are still not correct, because while they pay less for upgrades (depending on the level) than humans, they still have to pay for them.

Yes I meant upgrades. But it is true that the AI still doesn't use promotions well, it will for example give stupid woodlands promotions to city garrison units.

Civ 3 never had a functioning live MP version worth playing.

I take it you never bought Conquests

Personnally, I hate civ 3 and love civ 4.
You also totally forgot the fact that you can mod almost everything in civ4. I play on my own map script, and Fall from Heaven II in Civ4 couldn't have done in Civ 3 for instance.

Most mods of Civ 4 are terrible, but Civ 3 was far easier to mod because it was 2D. Let's keep our EYE ON THE BALL HERE PEOPLE.

[LDiCesare]

Most mods of Civ 4 are terrible, but Civ 3 was far easier to mod because it was 2D. Let's keep our EYE ON THE BALL HERE PEOPLE.

To each their own. It was impossible to script maps in civ3, was it? Or to change the combat model like Dale did?
As for easier to mod because it's 2D, bwahahahahaha! You kidding? A mod that's graphics only is not what I call a mod. Even then, if you just redo textures, you can still mod many units.
Of course most mods are crap. That's true of all mods in all games. But there are a few mods that make a real difference. And I like tweaking maps, barbarian generation in ways that are not possible in civ3.

[Wiglaf]

Yes, because the lack of map scripts really ruined Civ 3. Please.

The SDK did allow a modder to correct the terrible AI of the stock game in some areas, but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of the vanilla game's quality.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Most mods of Civ 4 are terrible, ...

Right, and that's why about half of the scenarios included in BtS were nothing more than player mods.

I really fail to see the point in your rants here Wiglaf, or are you just trying to get a rise out of everyone. If you don't have anything to say about the topic I started, don't say anything at all. Quit hijacking my thread with your trollish comments. If you don't like the game, don't play it.

[Wiglaf]

A) The player mods in BTS are um, quantity over quality I think. Scenarios in Civ don't work very well.

B) The game as is doesn't need much patching. If you absolutely need the minor improvements you can use the unofficial one for most purposes. I'm sure a patch would be nice but really, there have been so many already.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
B) The game as is doesn't need much patching. If you absolutely need the minor improvements you can use the unofficial one for most purposes. I'm sure a patch would be nice but really, there have been so many already.

As has been mentioned, an official final patch is needed for both MP and for modding. I'd like to get on with making the kinds of changes I want in my game but I'm reluctant to do so, since I'll only have to do it all over again when the final patch comes out. As I've had to do with every patch that's been released for the game. I'm getting a bit tired of redoing everything all the time. So this, IMO, unacceptable delay is holding me back from doing what I want. I'd also like to try out mods like Dale's Combat Mod but since he and others only base their work on official patches, it's preventing me from exploring new ways of playing the game as I don't want to play without Bhruics fixes. In short, my game is now collecting dust on the shelf just waiting for that final patch to be released.

[Ming]

He's just trolling... some of us may argue the merits of of Civ 2 vs 3... both sides have legitimate cases.
But when it comes to Civ 3 vs Civ 4, only a moron would argue that Civ 3 was better than Civ 4

[Wiglaf]

I didn't argue that, I said the games are very similar, enough to make the rampant hatred of Civ 3 kind of juvenile.

Also, I've looked at Bhruic's little fixes. They are nice, but I have no idea why you consider it gamebreaking that some tooltips are a little incomplete or whatever.

[Robert]

There I agree with Ming.
Civ4 is defenitly an improvement on Civ3.
I'd even say that Civ4 is the biggest step forward in civ-history. (asides from actually creating civ1 out of nothing )

Civ4 offers:
- multiple ways to wage wars
- multiple ways to play the game (wonder strategy, cottage strategy, aggressive strategy, great people strategy, diplomatic strategy, cultural strategy)
- Good AI
- many cool map scripts
- modability beyond anything
- epic feel and atmosphere (music, sounds, camera, 3D)
- City specialisation (catedrals, small wonders, tile improvement variation)
- more diplomatic possibilities (vassalage, trade table, diplomatic bonusses/penalties)
- event system
- promotion system
- true interestic combat that goes beyond lining up 40 tanks and 70 howitzers to take every city.
- Specialists offer a true alternative to tile working
- corporations

I am a civ3 fan, enjoyed the game very much.
But civ4 is defenitly a bigger step forwards from civ3 then civ3 was from civ2.

[Wiglaf]

You throw in a lot of expansion stuff in that list. And some BS too, e.g. "true interestic combat that goes beyond lining up 40 tanks and 70 howitzers to take every city" and the highly debatable "- epic feel and atmosphere (music, sounds, camera, 3D)" considering the game's a cartoon.

[snoopy369]

If you took Civ4's ruleset and exported it to a Civ1 style system, and the same for Civ3, you would see a vast difference. Just changing the corruption system alone was a big enough change IMO ... but the vast difference in how combat works, in how commerce works, in how specialists work, the addition of religion, of promotions ... what else can we say? Sure, they're both Civ at heart and are TBSs with units, cities, buildings in cities, etc. You might as well say that Starcraft is the same thing as Command and Conquer...

[Ming]

He's just trolling... anybody that thinks Civ 3 and Civ 4 are that similar really needs to sit down and play both games... Then they would see how silly some of his comments are.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
B) The game as is doesn't need much patching. If you absolutely need the minor improvements you can use the unofficial one for most purposes. I'm sure a patch would be nice but really, there have been so many already.

Either this wins an award for the sarcastic statement of the decade (and yes, the magnitude of this statement makes me willing to grant it even not knowing what humdingers people might throw out in the next 21 months) or else it wins the statement-most-likely-to-ruin-credibility award (and the follow-up about the value of the fixes didn't help).

Either way, it doesn't portend well for the rest of this discussion.

Wodan

[Ming]

Yeah... comments like that prove a lack of even the basic knowledge of the game

[Krill]

Actually, PTW and BtS aren't that different in SP...