Hebrews: Chosen People, but not for Civ?

[ZEE]

Solver and Alexander,

As was pointed out by Tatilla the Hun earlier in this thread, how do we know the Bible to be a reliable source? I dont want this to turn into a religious debate, and it seems the role of devils advocate has fallen on my shoulders, so ill do my best.

When i think of civs i think of Prussia not Germany, and the Franks not the French...as was pointed out by Solver in an earlier post. Those civs withstood invasions, were conqured and divided, and still came back to stand today. now to my next point...

ive NEVER liked the aztecs. though it is fun to pretend to be them, they did not do much in history, were easily conqured, and lost to time. the hebrew people were slaves in egypt, and their kingdom ravaged by others. though this is sad, we go back to the bible being a reliable source...

Finally terrorists aside, i might be totally wrong, and firaxis WILL include them later on, and i will eat my words. but i stand FIRM by my vote. I mean to offend nobody and if i have i am deeply sorry... piece

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by AAHZ
Solver and Alexander,

As was pointed out by Tatilla the Hun earlier in this thread, how do we know the Bible to be a reliable source? I dont want this to turn into a religious debate, and it seems the role of devils advocate has fallen on my shoulders, so ill do my best.

I would say that the historicity of the Old Testament is debatable prior to the Exodus. The Exodus is widely debated in historical circles, with varying theories about when it actually happened or if it even happened at all.

Regardless, by 1200 BC, the Hebrews were in Canaan displacing its earlier inhabitants, the Canaanites. Of the actual existence of Kings David and Solomon, I do not believe there is any doubt.

Originally posted by AAHZ
When i think of civs i think of Prussia not Germany, and the Franks not the French...as was pointed out by Solver in an earlier post. Those civs withstood invasions, were conqured and divided, and still came back to stand today. now to my next point...

One of the great things about Civ is that it identifies the civilization rather than the country, as Solver has previously stated.

The German civilization includes all its previous incarnations, including the Germanic tribes, Holy Roman Empire, Prussian 2nd Reich, Nazi 3rd Reich and modern Republic.

The French civilization has been through even more national permutations. The original Franks were a Germanic tribe which settled in Roman Gaul. After the split from the Germans, they truly became the French under Hugh Capet, in my opinion. Since then, their civilization has been incarnated in several different governments, "countries" if you will, including 6 monarchical dynasties, 2 empires and 5 republics!

Every civilization can be traced through history. That's the point -- what happens to it along the way. In playing Civ, you can rewrite the history of these nations to whatever you want, from an environmentalist democracy to fascist dictatorship to the occasional theocratic police-state.

Since civilization is an ongoing thing, I'd love to see the Hebrews' own unique diversity added to the game we all love so well.

And no, you haven't offended anybody, don't worry.

[Solver]

I just stand by what Alexander says. You can debate the historical accuracy of the Bible if you wish, but I don't think there's any doubt among historians that the Kingdom of Israel did exist, as did David and Solomon, and that the Hebrews did exist some time before taking Canaan.

[ZEE]

alexander,

then i guess that you would NOT compare the Aztec Empire with the Hebrews, and the Hebrews to be a better civ choice then them? if so why?

I see a remarkable resemblance between their two histories, (conquered and geographic dispersal) although religion is definately the cornerstone achievement of the Hebrews in my opinion. to leave THAT out of civ would have been a mistake, and i WOULD vote to have it in if it was so polled years ago. The Bible is definately not something i wanted to debate, and i will speak no more of it unless directly asked.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by AAHZ
The Bible is definately not something i wanted to debate, and i will speak no more of it unless directly asked.

Hi. Could you speak more about the Bible? Thanks.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Alexander01
UU: Slinger, Zealot, or Levite

Slinger would replace Warrior, I imagine.

WTF is a Levite?

The Zealot is already the UU of the Protoss, so that's a no go.

[ZEE]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Hi. Could you speak more about the Bible? Thanks.

i left myself wide open for that one. i forgot this was apolyton for a moment... not some rinky dink chat service. bravo LordShiva...

[Solver]

Oh, about the Aztecs. I think that the only reason they're seen by some as a "weak" culture is because they were conquered - and, frankly, winners write history. It's not like the Spanish would say much good about the Aztecs. But they were a very advanced civilization, actually, despite many areas of their technology being well behind European. They had advanced culture, had been around for quite a while, and were, apparently, good city-builders. Don't forget that Tenochtitlan was a very big city by standards of those times.

[LordShiva]

They weren't around that long (< 300 years)

[Solver]

That's enough in my book. Still, it's not entirely clear what are the civilization's origins before settling Chapultepec, so the Mexica may have existed for some time before that as a people (which is what civs in Civ are about).

[ZEE]

i still see huge comparisons between Aztecs and Hebrew. and NEITHER one of them has the solid backbone that Germany, England, and the others have in civ...piece

[Solver]

I don't see similarities between the Aztecs and Hebrews. Aztecs, when conquered, were essentially wiped out as an ethnic group. The ancient Kingdom of Israel was conquered, and Jerusalem was destroyed more times than you can count, but Judaism and Jews still very much exist today.

Judaism is a monotheistic religion. The Aztec religion was not. The Aztec culture was very war-like, unlike the Hebrew one. Hebrews, over time, had contact and influenced major empires (such as Rome), whereas the Aztecs were mostly in contact with the smaller tribes. Like their feud with the Totonacs.

Really, they're different civilizations in historical terms, and even more different culturally. One similarity is between their countries, given how the ancient Hebrew kingdom existed for roughly the same amount of time that the Aztec Empire did.

[zeace]

I played a game of Civ recently where I started next to Izzie and she started the game by founding three religions in her capital. Then a few hundred years later I brought my axemen and took her beautiful city away from its warrior guards...

That city ended up being the top city in the world, and the religions founded there were the dominant religions of the world. So in spite of how short her empire lasted it still obviously was incredibly important to history of that game.

I almost renamed the city Jerusalem.

---

As for whether to add Hebrews to the game... I think it might be hard to create a decent list of cities without debate. A lot of the ancient Hebrew cities are now in Arab hands, and if the Hebrew city list looks like the census of Israel it is more likely to upset some Arabs.

[Solver]

Well, city lists can be quite an issue with many civs. Personally, I would compose the city list of ancient Hebrew cities, no matter who they are controlled by now. That also seems to be how the lists usually got approached in the games.

[ZEE]

Originally posted by zeace
As for whether to add Hebrews to the game... I think it might be hard to create a decent list of cities without debate. A lot of the ancient Hebrew cities are now in Arab hands, and if the Hebrew city list looks like the census of Israel it is more likely to upset some Arabs.

a very good point. and one that ive been trying to stress as far as upsetting arabs in some way. city lists are tricky, and im sure firaxis has "experts" that usually take care of the issue. i wonder if they read this thread...