What seems to be the best leader after Warloards.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer

With Churchill's bonuses applied, I suspect you might as well ally with him until the coming of tanks. (I'm not a great lover of the British empire, but Churchill looks like a great new leader.)

"We shall never surrender" and all that.

[Watiggi]

Hi Solver, I am new to this site I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions about the game. I don't know whether it falls within your ability to answer though. I am interested in knowing:

*whether the Vassalage and Theocracy civics still give 2 xp each, and

*whether Aggressive allows for double production of the Barracks, Drydocks AND the Stables. There is some information in a review that suggests that it does indeed double the building speed of the Stables as well, but I was after some confirmation.

If these questions do fall outside of what you are able to talk about, could you let me know that? Thanks I have a feeling that if it's yes to all that, then Genghis is going to be dynamite...

Watiggi

[Will9]

Originally posted by Watiggi
Hi Solver, I am new to this site I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions about the game. I don't know whether it falls within your ability to answer though. I am interested in knowing:

*whether the Vassalage and Theocracy civics still give 2 xp each, and

*whether Aggressive allows for double production of the Barracks, Drydocks AND the Stables. There is some information in a review that suggests that it does indeed double the building speed of the Stables as well, but I was after some confirmation.

If these questions do fall outside of what you are able to talk about, could you let me know that? Thanks I have a feeling that if its yes to all that, then Genghis is going to be dynamite...

Watiggi

Solver probably won't tell you much. I can tell you this either expansive and aggresive will get double production speed on stables. Since Solver has told us what a the forum does maybe he could clarify what the Assembly Plant does.

[Watiggi]

Originally posted by Will9
Solver probably won't tell you much. I can tell you this either expansive and aggresive will get double production speed on stables. Since Solver has told us what a the forum does maybe he could clarify what the Assembly Plant does.

Hmmm. That's a good point about Expansive being the one that might offer cheap Stables. It would make sense. Hehe, it would be ironic too now that Genghis has lost the Expansive trait

Watiggi

[Qwertqwert]

Originally posted by Watiggi

Hmmm. That's a good point about Expansive being the one that might offer cheap Stables. It would make sense. Hehe, it would be ironic too now that Genghis has lost the Expansive trait

Watiggi

He's got agressive though...

[Watiggi]

Originally posted by Qwertqwert
He's got agressive though...

Yeah, I know. I am interested in whether the Aggressive trait can build the Stables quickly, that's all. If he (or either of the Mongols) can build the Barracks and Stables quickly, then it would cost them 60 hammers (3 chops before maths) to build them both. If Vassalage and Theocracy is still the same, then he will be able to build Keshiks with 11 xp each (3 promotions), right out of the city!

[Will9]

Originally posted by Watiggi

Hmmm. That's a good point about Expansive being the one that might offer cheap Stables. It would make sense. Hehe, it would be ironic too now that Genghis has lost the Expansive trait

Watiggi

I know that because in the the hardcore preview said that Shaka had expansive and agressive, and that he would have double production speed on barrackses, stables, and dry docks.

[Watiggi]

Originally posted by Will9
I know that because in the the hardcore preview said that Shaka had expansive and agressive, and that he would have double production speed on barrackses, stables, and dry docks.

Yeah, that was the review I was thinking of. Someone else said that Aggressive was unchanged, but that was before I read that link or really knew much about the Stables. Reading that review again, it might very well be for Expansive. Argh! I so hope the Aggressive trait is the one responsible for it!

edit: Hmmm. It is an 'experience generating' building though - much like the Barracks and Drydocks - which falls more into the military domain than the expansive domain. So maybe...

[Solver]

Since Genghis has Keshiks and his unique Stables, he's probably still quite a warmonger's dream.

[Watiggi]

True, he still would be, but it would be even better if he could chop rush the Barracks and Stables with 3 chops. If Vassalage and Theocracy have changed (they would both have to give 1 xp each or none at all or something), then it couldn't result in 10 xp Keshiks. I have figured out that the Barracks is 3 xp, the Ger is 4 xp - that leaves 3 xp to get to 10.

I guess this means you are unable to give out that information directly Is that correct?

Watiggi

[Solver]

You're forgetting that there are also Great Generals. You can settle your first in a city, for a +2 XP bonus from that city. That's important.

I myself don't think that Keshiks + Theocracy + Vassalage is very feasible. If you're making a Keshik rush, you want to do that rather early, before Feudalism or Theology anyway. 7 XP is already way good for a new unit, and if you're attacking before you those techs even come around, then Keshiks are very hard to deal with.

[Watiggi]

Originally posted by Solver
You're forgetting that there are also Great Generals. You can settle your first in a city, for a +2 XP bonus from that city. That's important.

I myself don't think that Keshiks + Theocracy + Vassalage is very feasible. If you're making a Keshik rush, you want to do that rather early, before Feudalism or Theology anyway. 7 XP is already way good for a new unit, and if you're attacking before you those techs even come around, then Keshiks are very hard to deal with.

I know. I am just trying to figure out why they gave the Ger a +2 xp bonus in the first place. It must connect somewhere so that some sort of bonus appears. Right now, the Barracks (3xp) and the Stables (2xp) gives 5xp for normal mounted units - that's 2 promotions. Everyone gets that bonus. If the Ger gives another 2xp, then that will be 7xp. I am wondering why? It does nothing. 7xp gives nothing at all. In fact, a Charismatic leader only needs to get from 5 to 8 in order to get their 3rd promotion. So I wondered if there was some other threshold later where it would help. *IF* Vassalage and Theocracy are still the same, then it will have more than 10 xp globally for every city that builds the Barracks and Ger. If the Ger can be built double the speed as can the Barracks...well that would be building both in 3 chops. See where I am getting at? A good expansion strategy with rushing Barracks and Ger and spitting out 11xp mounted units

As for using the Great Generals, I really don't know how often they come (and I assume you couldn't say), so I am not going to assume that it would be feasible to have every city capable of producing 10xp Keshiks by relying on Military Advisors.

It is just a strategy I was figuring out - trying to find the 'sweet spot' for the UB and where it fits into it all. What I wanted to see is whether all of his cities can easily produce 10xp mounted units with little effort... I want to find that synergy that Shaka has and see if they built Genghis's traits, UB and UU with an equivalent synergy in mind.

The only information I am missing is really confirmation of the civics being unchanged and whether the Stables/Ger is double speed for the Aggressive trait. If it all comes together there, then he will certainly be my pick of the best leader to play as.

EDIT: I agree with you with regards to Vassalage + Theocracy + Keshiks being too late and not feasible. I wasn't after a Keshik rush strategy. In my Keshik pillage rush strategies, I or anyone else rarely even gets Fedualism or Theocracy. This is more about finding that 'sweet spot' for the UB.

Watiggi

[Solver]

I see your point, but it doesn't even really work that way in vanilla Civ4. Consider this. Barracks = 4 XP (1 promotion). Barracks + Vassalage = 6 XP (2 promotions). Barracks + Vassalage + Theocracy = 8 XP (still 2 promotions). So yeah, if you ran both, there was a small bonus, butthe same number of free promotions. Unless you count in, say, the Pentagon.

So it doesn't "have" to be an extra bonus. Barracks + Ger = 7 XP. I'd say, though, that 9 XP is really better than 7, because at 9 XP, that's a promotion after the next survived battle, for sure.

Hey, I just convinced myself that, with the Mongols, it's probably best to settle the first General. Particularly given Genghis's Imperialistic trait.

[Watiggi]

Originally posted by Solver
I see your point, but it doesn't even really work that way in vanilla Civ4. Consider this. Barracks = 4 XP (1 promotion). Barracks + Vassalage = 6 XP (2 promotions). Barracks + Vassalage + Theocracy = 8 XP (still 2 promotions). So yeah, if you ran both, there was a small bonus, butthe same number of free promotions. Unless you count in, say, the Pentagon.

Yeah, I know. It can't work in Vanilla CivIV. When I herd about the Ger as UB, found out about the Stables and how the Ger gave extra experience, I wondered if it could be done.

So it doesn't "have" to be an extra bonus. Barracks + Ger = 7 XP. I'd say, though, that 9 XP is really better than 7, because at 9 XP, that's a promotion after the next survived battle, for sure.

Hey, I just convinced myself that, with the Mongols, it's probably best to settle the first General. Particularly given Genghis's Imperialistic trait.

I'm confused? Am I missing something here? Wouldn't you just go for Vassalage/Theocracy and build the Barracks/Ger and have 3 promotions? Or are you looking at an early Keshik rush strategy (where you probably wont get Fedualism or Theocracy)?

Does the Ger get built at double the speed (iow, IS the Stables 'turbo charged' for Aggressive leaders)? And is the Vassalage/Theocracy unchanged (with respects to only the xp given).

You seem to be avoiding the idea of using the civics as a solution. Is that because you are exploring the idea of an early Keshik rush (before those civics appear) or because they don't do that anymore?

If you are unable to say as to whether the civics have changed and whether Aggressive does double production of the Stables (and the Ger), could you let me know?

Watiggi

[Solver]

The numbers above were with me only considering one of the two civics... that just stems from my playstyle. I'm weird that way, I don't like running both Vassalage and Theocracy. I guess I like the other civics too much. And because I primarily see the Keshiks as a unit that is most useful early on, before those civics even are an option.

I can't say it either way about the Stables or the civics, though. Well, it's not like there's a long wait until release anymore .