What seems to be the best leader after Warloards.

[Solver]

You're not forbidden from posting, though, I'm just not answering anything not already known . You can't delete your own posts on this forum, either...

[Thedrin]

Ok, regarding the development of Warlords.

Originally the Protective trait was advertised as Drill I and Drill II for archery and artillery units. It's now Drill I and City Garrison for archery and gunpowder units. Were the initial reports inaccurate or was it changed?

I'm curious because I believe that while the originally declared Protective trait is not as strong defensively as the current one it was still very good as a defensive bonus as well as being very good as an offensive bonus. The current Protective trait provides little use for offensive play.

My suspicion is that - while a large number of people have looked at Charismatic as overpowered, Imperialistic as good and Protective as underpowered - Protective was altered to make it less powerful. Similar to how, according to some reports, Jaguars in a prerelease version were strength 6 and had to be reduced to 5 to make them more balanced.

[Solver]

Anything about development is permanently outside of what can be talked about - we don't normally talk about how things were changed during Civ4 vanilla, either.

Actually, though, here's a funny thing - if you go back and read the Civ4 previews from a couple of months before release, you'll find that they got a LOT of stuff wrong. Some got changed before the release, on a couple of occasions the reviewers just wrote it wrong for no reason.

Obviously, the newer articles have more info. The IGN preview which gives all the trait and UB info is like 2 days old, the first info was out some, uhm, 2 months ago?

[Thedrin]

Ok, thanks for the response. The question was entirely academic anyway.

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by Solver

Aside from how the new game elements play out, is there really that much that hasn't been announced?

To be honest, I don't really remember what has and hasn't been announced. New info seems to come out pretty often, I don't read those previews as they're not very interesting if you have the game, so I get confused .

You could look at CFC's thing. I figure Thunderfall would be a tester as well, but he only lists what's been revealed.

I may be mistaken, but I think that details on vassalage have not been published anywhere.

Not the details.

I'm also not sure if the actual benefits of a Warlord have been revealed?

Some of it, although I'm not sure if it was everything.

As for the Forum then, I can clarify, it's a mistake... it boosts great people. Funny, a vanilla Civ4 preview also mixed those up - said tat Philosophical gives +100% birth rate, IIRC.

That's the reason I guessed that it was for Great People. It made Philosophical seem overpowered before someone clarified it.

[Solver]

I think it was Soren himself back then who clarified that error on Philosophical.

Now I would probably get fired if I looked at CFC .

[LordShiva]

CFC is for hippies

[Louis XXIV]

lol, fair enough.

Better for me, since I might be able to trick you into giving new info.

[One_more_turn]

I recently played a game as Frederick and changed my mind about Creative. Thus, I think Augustus will be very strong. The combination of Creative (strong defense), Organized (big empire), and Praetorians (strong offense) is lethal. His uncle Julius is more geared toward offense and may be better at higher levels (where offensive warmongering is necessary). The big question, though, is how much Protective archers will slow down Praetorians.

[Bobtoad]

A lot of the new leaders are enticing... and I know I echo a lot of other opinions...

For horizontal expansion Augustus Caesar definitely looks dreamy. Creative/Organized should let you fill the map quickly and with the help of Praetorians you can push out even farther. The forum isn't awe inspiring, but it's hard to complain about +25% GPP.

And I do like Wang Kon of Korea as a builder. Protective seems like a nice second trait (something to have in addition to a strong trait to make things easier) and then you add that to their Hwacha (catapult replacement) and you have a resourceless beast. Mysticism and Mining are also decent starting techs. And financial? You can do a lot with it - especially with extra beakers from the unique building.

Churchill seems like a guy that can survive until Rifling with his protective archers and then upgrade and let loose the Redcoats. The Redcoats were great already, but when thrown in with Charismatic and Protective they look even better.

For the old leaders I also agree with a lot of other people and would like to see Cyrus in the early game and Frederick in the late game. I loved Mao with the philosophical/organized mix. But I might enjoy it even more with Frederick.

[One_more_turn]

I don't think Praetorians will be able to crack Protective Longbowmen without some offensive help.

Protective Longbowmen:
Drill I, City Garrison I,
With Barracks: City Garrison II,
With Vassalage/Theocracy: City Garrison III

Charismatic's effect on Unit Promotion:
Level 2 2
Level 3 5 - 5 x 0.25 = 4
Level 4 10 - 10 x 0.25 = 8
Level 5 17 - 17 x 0.25 = 13
Level 6 26 - 26 x 0.25 = 20
Level 7 37 - 37 x 0.25 = 28

Charismatic Protective Longbowmen with Barracks:
Drill I, City Garrison III

Churchill's cities will be very difficult to take.

[kiky]

Using Churchill:

Will Maceman with CityRaider3 upgrade to Rifleman with CityRaider3 + Drill 1 + CityGarison 1 ?

Churchill maybe good for huge maps.

[dregor]

Originally posted by kiky
Using Churchill:

Will Maceman with CityRaider3 upgrade to Rifleman with CityRaider3 + Drill 1 + CityGarison 1 ?

Churchill maybe good for huge maps.

I would imagine that the protective promotions would only be applied to newly made units.

[Thedrin]

Originally posted by kiky
Using Churchill:

Will Maceman with CityRaider3 upgrade to Rifleman with CityRaider3 + Drill 1 + CityGarison 1 ?

Churchill maybe good for huge maps.

No.

Macemen with City Raider III upgrade to Red Coats with City Raider III. I do not know if they'll get the Protective bonuses.

Actually, a simple way to check is to see what happens when an Aggressive leader upgrades a longbowman to a gunpowder unit. If the gunpowder unit gets Combat I then it's reasonable to assume that the Red Coats of Churchill in your scenario will get Drill I and City Garrison I.

Despite having regularly played as aggressive leaders I can't remember what happens in such an upgrade.

[Solver]

I prefer upgrading to Grenadiers anyway. City Raider III Grenadiers are better, because there's nothing that can stop them. Machine Guns are on par.