What seems to be the best leader after Warloards.

[Watiggi]

Originally posted by Solver
The numbers above were with me only considering one of the two civics... that just stems from my playstyle. I'm weird that way, I don't like running both Vassalage and Theocracy. I guess I like the other civics too much. And because I primarily see the Keshiks as a unit that is most useful early on, before those civics even are an option.

Heh, I understand perfectly. I tend to avoid State Property so that I can find other alternatives so I don't become relient on it. The Vassalage/Theocracy combo was just a quick solution I had. Once I get my bearings with the Great General and how often it appears, etc, I will look for other ways of getting the same results.

I can't say it either way about the Stables or the civics, though. Well, it's not like there's a long wait until release anymore .

True, all though it is a matter of opinion as to whether it is a long wait or not At this point of time, for some strange reason time seems to slllooow dooowwwn

Thanks anyway though

Tell me (if you can), is the Imperialistic trait interesting to play as? I would imagine Charismatic would be an interesting warmongers trait. Tokugawa would be ridiculous in the gunpowder age I would imagine.

Watiggi

[Solver]

I think that Charismatic is more powerful overall that Imperialistic, but Imperialistic certainly plays very differently. Cheaper Settlers means you can build your 2nd and 3rd city notably faster, but you also have a danger of shooting yourself in the foot with maintenance. And with the General bonus, it simply becomes tempting to fight.

I prefer Charistmatic, though, because I play most of my games as a builder, with few wars - defensive wars or maybe for a crucial piece of land. And the Charismatic bonuses, both of them, also help builders. Extra happy is always a plus, and cheaper promotions also means better (easier) defense.

I finished a game as Tokugawa last night, very interesting trait combo. Of course, the bonus is more useful for Grenadiers/Riflemen. Musketmen aren't really great units for attacking cities.

[Watiggi]

Originally posted by Solver
I think that Charismatic is more powerful overall that Imperialistic, but Imperialistic certainly plays very differently. Cheaper Settlers means you can build your 2nd and 3rd city notably faster, but you also have a danger of shooting yourself in the foot with maintenance. And with the General bonus, it simply becomes tempting to fight.

Is the General bonus noticeable? iow, does the 100% increase make a big difference at all?

I prefer Charistmatic, though, because I play most of my games as a builder, with few wars - defensive wars or maybe for a crucial piece of land. And the Charismatic bonuses, both of them, also help builders. Extra happy is always a plus, and [b]cheaper promotions also means better (easier) defense.[b]

Wow! That never occured to me. I never thought of it from the defensive point of view. What is it like on the offensive when compared to Imperialistic or Aggressive (or Protective)?

I finished a game as Tokugawa last night, very interesting trait combo. Of course, the bonus is more useful for Grenadiers/Riflemen. Musketmen aren't really great units for attacking cities.

I would imagine Tokugawa with Mech. Infantry with City Garrison I, Drill I and Combat I would be good (Mech. Infantry is a gunpowder unit, isn't it?)

[Thedrin]

Originally posted by Watiggi

Is the General bonus noticeable? iow, does the 100% increase make a big difference at all?

Interesting question. The philosophy bonus grants 100% extra but that can be made up through wonders and civics. Unless one of the civics has changed to do something similar for great generals the 100% great general boost could be far more effective than the 100% great person boost. Of course, without knowing how the great general points are assigned - per victory only or are odds of victory accounted for - this comparison could be meaningless.

I would imagine Tokugawa with Mech. Infantry with City Garrison I, Drill I and Combat I would be good (Mech. Infantry is a gunpowder unit, isn't it?)

It is a gunpowder unit (with march too).

[Watiggi]

Originally posted by Thedrin
Interesting question. The philosophy bonus grants 100% extra but that can be made up through wonders and civics. Unless one of the civics has changed to do something similar for great generals the 100% great general boost could be far more effective than the 100% great person boost. Of course, without knowing how the great general points are assigned - per victory only or are odds of victory accounted for - this comparison could be meaningless.

Now with the Military Academy giving 25% bonus production to military units, I am left to wonder if Police State has changed. Maybe it now offers a 100% Great General bonus - much the same way as Pacifist does for Great People.

[Solver]

Is the General bonus noticeable? iow, does the 100% increase make a big difference at all?

Interesting question. The philosophy bonus grants 100% extra but that can be made up through wonders and civics.

And the philosophical bonus, if you use Pacifism, becomes 200% . 100% is always a noticeable bonus. In the case of Imperialistic, that would mean you get your first general twice as fast as you normally would, and I'll leave the judgement of whether it's worth it to you.

Wow! That never occured to me. I never thought of it from the defensive point of view. What is it like on the offensive when compared to Imperialistic or Aggressive (or Protective)?

On offense, the real bonus of Charismatic, in my opinion, isn't the cheaper first promotions. It doesn't matter that much on the offense - units get to 10 XP real fast, a third promotion a bit earlier isn't that much of a bonus. The real bonus is that it's easier to get highly promoted units. Normally, you need 17 and 26 XP for the fourth and fifth promotion. And those are the promotions that can be reall powerful - with Charismatic, access to highly promoted units becomes easier.

I would imagine Tokugawa with Mech. Infantry with City Garrison I, Drill I and Combat I would be good (Mech. Infantry is a gunpowder unit, isn't it?)

You should win the game by the time you can build Mech Inf .

[Watiggi]

Originally posted by Solver
And the philosophical bonus, if you use Pacifism, becomes 200% . 100% is always a noticeable bonus. In the case of Imperialistic, that would mean you get your first general twice as fast as you normally would, and I'll leave the judgement of whether it's worth it to you.

Twice as fast as you normally would doesn't mean that you will get it twice as quicker though - it all seems to depend on how often you are at war.

What would happen if you had leader A - non Imperialistic and leader B - Imperialistic, and they both went to war constantly. Would B get generals twice as often?

On offense, the real bonus of Charismatic, in my opinion, isn't the cheaper first promotions. It doesn't matter that much on the offense - units get to 10 XP real fast, a third promotion a bit earlier isn't that much of a bonus. The real bonus is that it's easier to get highly promoted units. Normally, you need 17 and 26 XP for the fourth and fifth promotion. And those are the promotions that can be reall powerful - with Charismatic, access to highly promoted units becomes easier.

Hmmm. What about warlords? Can't you use the General and make it into a Warlord and use that to give your units extra experience? Can you have 'lots' of Warlord units in the game at one time?

You should win the game by the time you can build Mech Inf .

True. But there are some people who play to enjoy the gaming experience, not to win Mind you, I think I have encounted Mech. Infantry in one, possibly two games. I rarely even get to the Industrial era myself.

[Solver]

Uhm, okay, I probably made the wrong choice of words there. It can happen. For example, it should also be noted how "double production with Stone" (like for Pyramids) does NOT mean you need half as much time to build.

Hmmm. What about warlords? Can't you use the General and make it into a Warlord and use that to give your units extra experience? Can you have 'lots' of Warlord units in the game at one time?

You can, and sure the Warlord giving XP is powerful. But you sure aren't going to have an army with 10 Warlords in it. Charismatic, on the other hand, lets you get quite a lot of unit with many promotions. I'd take 10 units with 4-5 promotions over 1 unit with 7 promotions.

Warlord gives 20 XP. For a non-charismatic leader, that's 4 promotions, and 6 XP until the fifth.

[Watiggi]

I thought the 20 xp was divided up amongst all the units in the stack. If that is so, if there is no units (other than the Warlord-to-be), then does the Warlord-to-be get all the 20xp. Conversely, if there are 4 units in the stack, does that mean that 20xp will be divided up amongst the 4 units or is it 20xp each?

[SebP]

Originally posted by Watiggi
What would happen if you had leader A - non Imperialistic and leader B - Imperialistic, and they both went to war constantly. Would B get generals twice as often?

Not twice as often, only earlier. i remember having read somewhere (last IGN preview?) that every General is TWICE as expensive as the one before. If in fact costs grow exponentially like this the imperialistic leader will only generate 1 more great general than the non-imperialistic in total. Looking at it from this angle, and if typical numbers of generals generated or bigger than 6, it doesn't seem a big bonus. At any point in time, you will have gotten at most 1 more than you would not being imperialistic.
It may still be worth it to be 1 ahead.
(Off course this doesn't yet take into account that you will probably generate generals faster as imperialist, because the earlier generals give you an edge in warfare and thus more great general points. Then again, other traits give you an edge in warfare as well,a nd probably a bigger one)

[Will9]

I was looking thourgh the traits and realized Cyrus had one of the best military trait combos. Imperialistic means he gets great generals easier and Charismatic means that more promotions can be gotten.

[Solver]

Cyrus has Immortals, that makes him awesome even if he had no traits at all!

[Watiggi]

Solver, is that true about how the needed great general points doubles with each great general given? If so, that would be ridiculous! The normal Great People increases by 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000 - thats 10 GP's.

If it was doubled every time, then it would be 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600 to just get 5 GG's. That just doesn't seem right - and if it does, then the Imperialistic trait is rather weak indeed.

Solver, does it indeed double or does it follow the same patteren as normal GP's (or does it follow a completely different system altogether)?

Watiggi

[SebP]

here's the page in question:

http://pc.ign.com/articles/717/717727p2.html

Great General
Each civilization also has the chance to earn a Great General unit. As your civilization's units earn experience points, they slowly begin unlocking a Great General. Once you've reached a certain number of experience points, a Great General will appear in one of your cities. (Each new General will require you to earn twice as much experience as the one before.)

However, there were other errors in this preview as well...

I think these exponentially growing costs would be good here, except for the effect on imperialistic which really seems weak with this

[Watiggi]

Yeah, exactly. The errors on that preview cause me to wonder if they truely double. I would expect it to go the same way: 100, 200, 300... etc. That would make sense to me - and would also make the Imperialistic bonus mean something.

You see, the thing is, IF it doubles and the Generals are rare, then the bonus wont be much of an addition when compared to Charismatic for instance. I would have thought that Imperialistic would have been the conquerors trait where it allows for a lot of generals who help in the military effort. But if they are rare in general (no pun intended), then it wont even remotely compete with Charismatic's ability to clock up the promotions fast. So it would be great if this was clarified in some way - at least gotten right and confirmed would be good - because right now, Imperialistic is looking the weakest of the 3 (and possibly others).

EDIT:

IGN Review
Any units that happen to be in the same tile when the Warlord is created, gain an additional twenty experience points.

That to me says that every unit in the tile gets 20xp each. Is this true too?

Watiggi