Civ4: Omega Expansion

[padillah]

Originally posted by Common Sensei
Discussions on whether America belongs in the game get too personal and deterioate quickly. We might as bring up the topic of Hitler's inclusion while we're at it. We all know that hasn't been discussed enough either.

HA!! Godwin's Law!!

We have to stop talking about this now.

Tom P.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by padillah


HA!! Godwin's Law!!

We have to stop talking about this now.

Tom P.

Maybe that's why ol' Mr. H won't ever make it into Civ4.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
And so you see a very Western view of history.

The game is increasingly being sold and marketed in Asia as well, as an increasing number of Asian posters on this site, the changes made in v1.61 for Chinese localisation and the localisation credits of Civ4 and especially Warlords all prove. And part of marketing is including recognisable civs for the people of that part of the world. Like it or not, Civ is increasingly becoming a 'world product' rather than an American one, as frankly the entertainment industry in general (not just Firaxis but definitely them as well) is increasingly starting to realise that the world market is way, way bigger and potentially more profitable than just the American one. In China alone you can potentially make more money with certain products than you could ever dream of making with them in the US...

And even aside from that, the historic texture in the game is becoming increasingly less Western-centric, as witnessed by the names of civs, wonders, religions, great people, etc. Civ1 would definitely never have had buildings like Kashi Vishwanath or Sankore University or people like Yunus Emre or Kobo-Daishi, but they are all in Civ4. And just compare the Zulu city list of Civ4 with those of Civ1-3... As the (Western) world is slowly moving away from the western-centric view of history we've had in the past, so is Civilization. Especially since important people within Firaxis (such as Soren) feel strongly about this issue, we're moving a little faster than the rest of the world as well...


I'm NOT getting into the US yes or no discussion again, we've been there before and as I said those threads have gone well beyond the 500 post marker. Suffice to say a lot of people feel it shouldn't be in and a lot of people feel it should -- it depends on your geographic location, your views of history and your views of how Civ should represent history, among other things. Just the things that are relevant in this discussion. All I'll say about it is if you can't even rationally consider the arguments for or against it (regardless of whether you agree with them or not), you're way too biased to get involved in such a discussion -- you're never gonna change your mind if presented with reasonable arguments and with your jingolistic garbage (that I'm already seeing in this thread and the other one Will9 started) you're not gonna be able to convince anyone else either, you'll just offend people.

[Dis]

The U.S. should be in the game so the muslim kids that buy Civ4 in the middle east can raze all the american cities to the ground. .

It's only a joke. Don't call me a racist.

[Dis]

Speaking of city list names. Why is there a german city called Munster? Shouldn't it be called Ulm?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by LordShiva
While I agree that the Americans should be in the game, I think Locutus' point was not to say that America hasn't had an impact on world history, because obviously, as you point out, it has, but that it's impact, again as you point out, has only really been felt in the last 100 or so years, which isn't that long in civilisational terms.

Plenty of other civs in the game are like that.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Locutus
The game is increasingly being sold and marketed in Asia as well, as an increasing number of Asian posters on this site, the changes made in v1.61 for Chinese localisation and the localisation credits of Civ4 and especially Warlords all prove. And part of marketing is including recognisable civs for the people of that part of the world. Like it or not, Civ is increasingly becoming a 'world product' rather than an American one, as frankly the entertainment industry in general (not just Firaxis but definitely them as well) is increasingly starting to realise that the world market is way, way bigger and potentially more profitable than just the American one.

Western sales still dwarf those.

In China alone you can potentially make more money with certain products than you could ever dream of making with them in the US...

If it weren't for that pesky piracy issue...

I'm NOT getting into the US yes or no discussion again,

Coward. You brought it up.

[Kuciwalker]

Incidentally, are any of these emerging markets going to know anything about the Olmecs, or want Austria-Hungary as a civilization?

[Dis]

Which brings up more points. If we are going to include civilizations to satisfy the market place where they reside, why bother having ancient civilizations at all? Why not have the Italians instead of the Romans? Get rid of the persians as well.

In fact, I think there might already be a trend towards this. As there are no more babylonians. . I kind of miss them. I kind of saw this trend in civ3 with the inclusion of Korea.

So we should make civs just to include their market places? Why not have Canada then. Even though they haven't done **** (just kidding, you are just always so easy to make fun of). Mexico should be in as well.

Let me compile a quick list... Mexico, United States, Canada, England, Ireland, Spain, France, Germany, Serbia, Austria, Hungary, Russia, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Italy, Greece, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Israel, China, India, Mongolia, Japan, Korea, Philappines. I know I'm leaving out several smaller european countries, and many african and asian ones. There just can only be so many civs in a game.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Dis
Let me compile a quick list... Mexico, United States, Canada, England, Ireland, Spain, France, Germany, Serbia, Austria, Hungary, Russia, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Italy, Greece, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Israel, China, India, Mongolia, Japan, Korea, Philappines. I know I'm leaving out several smaller european countries, and many african and asian ones. There just can only be so many civs in a game.

You forgot New Zealand

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Western sales still dwarf those.

They're trying to change that, that's the whole point.

If it weren't for that pesky piracy issue...

See above.

Originally posted by Dis
Speaking of city list names. Why is there a german city called Munster? Shouldn't it be called Ulm?

Because there's completely different cities? Münster is near the Dutch border in the west, Ulm is on the Danube river in (or possibly near, not sure) Bavaria, in the south. And they're both on the German list.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Locutus

Originally posted by Dis
Speaking of city list names. Why is there a german city called Munster? Shouldn't it be called Ulm?

Because there's completely different cities? Münster is near the Dutch border in the west, Ulm is on the Danube river in (or possibly near, not sure) Bavaria, in the south. And they're both on the German list.

As you and Dis write the name of the city differently (dis with u, you with ü):
Both names even point to different cities.
Münster is like you correctly said, near the dutch border (in Northrhine westfalia [NRW]).
Munster on the other hand also exists and is located halfway between Hamburg and Hannover.
It is the place of a major military exercise grounds and is also place of a tank museum (the biggest or at least one of the biggest in germany).

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Both names even point to different cities.

There are actually at least about a dozen different places called Munster (with or without umlaut -- in English the umlaut is simply left out), some in Germany and some outside it (France, Austria, Switzerland, US, Canada, Australia). But since the one in NRW has by far the most history (internationally famous for the Peace of Westphalia, but also one of the core cities of the Holy Roman Empire, seat of an important bishopdom and university and one of the most powerful Hanseatic League cities) that is probably the one referred to in the game.

[Proteus_MST]

I agree.
Were it not for the military exercise grounds and the tank museum, no one would know the Munster near Hamburg (aside from the poeple living there, of course
And even with these things in place I doubt that many people in germany know of Munster

Münster on the other hand, I think most people in germany know of this city, for the reasons you mentioned.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Originally posted by Locutus
I'm NOT getting into the US yes or no discussion again,

Coward. You brought it up.

No. Actually if anyone started this it was either DirtyMartini (Post 251):

Anyone else think adding a bunch more marginal civs -- portugese, dutch, mayans --- takes away more than it adds?...

Or me for taking up arms.

As for who brought up America should be in Locutus didn't broach the subject so much as use the argument as an example. I would hope you would allow someone to cite an example without having to defend the example itself.

Tom P.