Civ4: Omega Expansion

[Adagio]

Originally posted by Locutus
Familiar is different things for different people, that's my whole point. I personally think it's ludicrous the Zulus and Americans are in the game, they have absolutely nothing to do with world history as covered in Civilization -- the Zulu are not familar to me at all and the Americans only in the sense of mid- to late-20th century history (post-1940). The Khmer and Ethiopians OTOH most certainly are familiar to me.

I can agree with the Zulu thing, but I see no reason NOT to include the Americans, as they are the worlds superpower. The "they're so young" argument doesn't make sense, as it's not how long takes, but what it has accomplished, that counts

Originally posted by Locutus
Get a proper history book...

I don't have any history books, and I couldn't be bothered to spend time searching the net to find the history of a nation I've never heard of

[Kuciwalker]

Here's a good reason to include the Americans: they're half the audience, and money >> your prejudices. Here's another reason: we have as much or more right to be in here as the Aztecs, or Incas, or Germans, or other civs you have no problem with.

[Will9]

Originally posted by Locutus

Familiar is different things for different people, that's my whole point. I personally think it's ludicrous the Zulus and Americans are in the game, they have absolutely nothing to do with world history as covered in Civilization -- the Zulu are not familar to me at all and the Americans only in the sense of mid- to late-20th century history (post-1940). The Khmer and Ethiopians OTOH most certainly are familiar to me.

Wow, suprising words coming from someone who could be living in the 2nd or 3rd Reichs if it wasn't for America. America really has been a major power since the Spanish-American War (1898?-1899?). America saved the world in both world wars. By the way,
USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Will9
Wow, suprising words coming from someone who could be living in the 2nd or 3rd Reichs if it wasn't for America. America really has been a major power since the Spanish-American War (1898?-1899?). America saved the world in both world wars. By the way,
USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

While I agree that the Americans should be in the game, I think Locutus' point was not to say that America hasn't had an impact on world history, because obviously, as you point out, it has, but that it's impact, again as you point out, has only really been felt in the last 100 or so years, which isn't that long in civilisational terms.

[Common Sensei]

Originally posted by LordShiva


While I agree that the Americans should be in the game, I think Locutus' point was not to say that America hasn't had an impact on world history, because obviously, as you point out, it has, but that it's impact, again as you point out, has only really been felt in the last 100 or so years, which isn't that long in civilisational terms.

Of course, in real world history, that's an insignificant portion of time. In Civ IV, the time scale means that the last hundred years is about 25% or so of the game, give or take depending on the game pace.

I think people sometimes try too hard to project the real world and/or their agendas in and forget it's just a game that's based on history, but not bound to it.

Discussions on whether America belongs in the game get too personal and deterioate quickly. We might as bring up the topic of Hitler's inclusion while we're at it. We all know that hasn't been discussed enough either.

[Will9]

I started a thread on if America shold be in civ so other threads wouldn't go off-topic. Please post there on this subject.

[Willem]

Originally posted by monkspider
The only ones I would definitely say no to on Locutus' list was Phonecia,

You mean you wouldn't consider the civilization that gave us the first Alphabet?

[Willem]

Originally posted by padillah
Even the Celts, who are technically gone and have no country named after them,...

Tell that to the Welsh and Irish who still speak the language. Or at least what it evolved into.

[Alexander I]

I suppose each person's preferences for which civs to include revolves primarily around their Weltanschauung (or World View). In other words, some people value the fame of the civ, whereas others value its true effect on the world. Some even value the civ's ability to affect the world in its time (the Civ's Potential Energy, so to speak). I suppose that Firaxis will choose a little of each.

Regardless, this should not be an issue to generate hard feelings.

[Dis]

Originally posted by padillah


Having just asked 15 people here at work and none of them knew of the Khmer at all...I don't think they are.

Like I told monkspider, any question is easy if you know the answer. Of course you guys think they are well know... you know of them so by definition they are well know to you. But being well know in a community that researches and experiments with civilisations is not the same as being universally popular. And to Locutus' point, we hardcores only make up a miniscule part of the customer base.

I would be willing to bet there are more people walking the street that know of the Celts then know of the Khmer, and the Khmer have had a country named after them.

Tom P.

I can imagine the strange looks I'd get at work if I asked them if they knew what the Khmer were. They'd think I'm crazy.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Common Sensei


Of course, in real world history, that's an insignificant portion of time. In Civ IV, the time scale means that the last hundred years is about 25% or so of the game, give or take depending on the game pace.

I think people sometimes try too hard to project the real world and/or their agendas in and forget it's just a game that's based on history, but not bound to it.

Discussions on whether America belongs in the game get too personal and deterioate quickly. We might as bring up the topic of Hitler's inclusion while we're at it. We all know that hasn't been discussed enough either.

Hitler Seems silly not to have him- especially since they included FDR instead of Lincoln. FDR- a man with no regards to the constitution.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Alexander01
I suppose each person's preferences for which civs to include revolves primarily around their Weltanschauung (or World View). In other words, some people value the fame of the civ, whereas others value its true effect on the world. Some even value the civ's ability to affect the world in its time (the Civ's Potential Energy, so to speak). I suppose that Firaxis will choose a little of each.

Regardless, this should not be an issue to generate hard feelings.

I hope not. Everyone will have their view of what is "right". Some people go for more politically correct options, or to create a balance. I'm personally not big on sub saharan civs. Nothing against them, but having more than one seems unecessary.

Portugal and the Netherlands are decent choices. You could say their age of power was limited. But so was the U.S. Even though the U.S. hasn't been in power long, the notable exception is they are at the top. Portugal and the Netherlands never were.

I'm pretty happy with things as is. I think they did a good job choosing civs. I don't feel anymore are needed.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Willem


Tell that to the Welsh and Irish who still speak the language. Or at least what it evolved into.

I am Irish... that's why I said technically. My grandmother would kill me if I lumpped her in with the Welsh though, so let's keep those comments to a minimum.

Tom P.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Adagio


I can agree with the Zulu thing, but I see no reason NOT to include the Americans, as they are the worlds superpower. The "they're so young" argument doesn't make sense, as it's not how long takes, but what it has accomplished, that counts

This is a great point: Why should the Khmer empire be included because it had such a huge impact but "America" not be included because it's so young? Are they trying to say "America" hasn't made an impact?!?

I don't have any history books, and I couldn't be bothered to spend time searching the net to find the history of a nation I've never heard of

And this, I feel, is the distinction between the sets of people that play Civilization. People who play it for it's strategic worth, countries and histories be dashed.

And people that play it as a historical re-creation.

I, for one, am a strategist (not a very good one, mind you, but I am).

Tom P.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Alexander01
Regardless, this should not be an issue to generate hard feelings.

Oh, gosh. I hope not. As heated as I've gotten with Locutus I never meant to hurt anyones feelings. And I've seen enough discipline from the staff here to feel confident he is OK with me as well.

I am a very passive person...in...person.( , I feel like Austin Powers).

Tom P.