Technology beelining

[DeepO]

Originally posted by cal_01


I guess what I'm trying to say is that you'd have to go back and get those techs, as opposed to having those techs now.

Exactly. Are you aware that when you go back, you gain a bonus for picking up an old tech?

Don't get me wrong; IMO, some short term beelining is good. But beelining for things too far off can seriously hinder tech advancement.

Sure, that's the point, obviously. Going to extremes in one direction will mean that you lack other aspects. That doesn't mean you have to play flat games, only that your beelines should follow the situation given to you.

DeepO

[DeepO]

From another thread...

Originally posted by stormwriter
Next question: I was trying the Oracle Civil Service Whip, and it says to get a library ASAP, and make two citizens into engineers to increase research. OK, that sounds cool and everything, but my production and food output just went straight to hell! Why is that a good strategy to cripple my best city?

The reason why I'm putting so much energy in this start (both on this forum, as in testgames), is that it shows you very well that 'crippling' your capital is very relative. Certain situations require other tactics, which means that what you might consider criplling in one situation does not apply to another one.

Here, we're specifically talking about the very early game, where your capital growth is going to be limited by your health and happy limits. In a normal game, you would try to balance things out by e.g. using mined hills, building cottages on plains, or building workers/settlers (which take away excess food production)

In the CS-start however, it is clearly demonstrated that you can also unbalance the charateristics of your capital. Moreover, if you know in advance what you're aiming for, you can play so that you know when, and how you are going to unbalance things and hence solve possible overruns. The choice here is to go for research, and lots of it. You know you're going to use this, so you aim for a lib and 2 scientists. And instead of building settlers at a certain point in the game, you're diverting it to the Oracle.

There are more optimal configurations to get more production, and hence a faster Oracle, but the faster Oracle is not the main priority: it's the global strat that counts (which in this case has one main goal: get to CS ASAP)

Doing so is not crippling your game (most certainly not! It's an investment, not a penalty). It is also not crippling your capital, but it takes a different approach, leading to other accents. Instead of emphasizing production, you're emphasizing science, which can lead to more production later in the game.

DeepO

[Dog of Justice]

Originally posted by DeepO

Exactly. Are you aware that when you go back, you gain a bonus for picking up an old tech?

Where is the post outlining how the math works?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dog of Justice


Where is the post outlining how the math works?

There is none I'm aware off. And I don't know how it works exactly either, only that it's true. When picking up techs everybody already has, you will spend less beakers on it... pay attention when testing the CS strat to the extreme, and you will notice this effect.

It's not the same as in Civ3, but it has the same effect: backward civs will be given some bonusses to get back into the game.

DeepO

[cal_01]

Originally posted by DeepO

Exactly. Are you aware that when you go back, you gain a bonus for picking up an old tech?

Don't get me wrong; IMO, some short term beelining is good. But beelining for things too far off can seriously hinder tech advancement.

Sure, that's the point, obviously. Going to extremes in one direction will mean that you lack other aspects. That doesn't mean you have to play flat games, only that your beelines should follow the situation given to you.

DeepO

Yeah, I'm aware of the bonuses.

I guess here's another example: I semi-beelined to Democracy/SoL and I ended up missing the Grocer and Bank. I didn't get it until later on (missing the entire Monarchy tree), and ended up hampering my city growth. In retrospect, I should have went the other way; went for Market/Grocer/Bank and then do a 180 towards the other tech tree since I had the Pyramids and Universal Sufferage going on. From all the turns I wasted, I would have enough food and gold to catch up to Democracy.

[Datajack Franit]

usually you should ALWAYS research agriculture as your first tech, as it's basic to improve city's growth in the first 20 turns, while your scouts are around exploring the continent

then, if you have 2-3 cows/horses nearby go for animal husbandry, otherwise mining/fishing depending on what kind of resources you see around

the wheel is important but if there are rivers and/or coasts you can use to connect your cities you can skip it and go for bronze working, iron working and polytheism, which are a great boost for: seizing metal resources in the early stages of the game, founding the Oracle and try to found a religion (which is one of the most important things of Civ4.. cannot imagine to play without the advantage of receiving 15 to infinite gpt from cities of your religion)

[Blake]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
usually you should ALWAYS research agriculture as your first tech, as it's basic to improve city's growth in the first 20 turns, while your scouts are around exploring the continent

That's an odd thing to say. Ag is quite situational, only for crop resources and flood plains. (fresh water grassland goes from 2->3 food, but a 2-1 grassland forest is equal for settler-pumpage, and is free)

cannot imagine to play without the advantage of receiving 15 to infinite gpt from cities of your religion

How about recieving 15 to infinite gpt from someone elses religion. I nearly always "find" my religion rather than "found" it now . AI's often create the shrine for you, which is handy. The general exception is I might found Conf combined with the oracle strat.

[Datajack Franit]

Er, if you don't own the shrine city, you don't get the +1 gold from foreign cities of the same cult

[Blake]

I don't think I ever implied that the AI actually gets to keep the religion they found for me. But they get to spin in their graves while I spread it as my own.

[Cort Haus]

After some extensive testing on Prince, I found the CS Slingshot to be very potent on a isolated continental start. By the time the hyper-capital has been built you'll only be encroached by Barbs rather than rival AI civs, and the wafer-thin military, compared to the AI which always seems to have at least 3 archers per city from very early, is less of a liability. It then sets up a good charge to Optics, so the other civs can be met, techs traded, and the diplomatic game starts.

I also found that Civs with Agriculture but not Mysticism can get the Library & Acadamy done faster via AH than the religious branch, and are less likely to get a settler out before hand - but will get to CS quicker.

When I did get a settler out because of the extra time spent early on the religious branch, and I was not alone, a barracks and some vet warriors from City #2 were handy. Although the AI would have archers long before me, even warriors made me slightly less weak to the AI, better able to deal with barbs, and have escorts & garrisons ready for when the hyper-capital starts spitting settlers.

Another thing I found was that Bronze Working could be quite a detour, especially without mining as a starting tech. It wouldn't lose me the Oracle on Prince but it would slow things down. Though, this slower pace could mean more settlers / warriors being built instead.

Alphabet, as Arrian mentioned, is a big diversion, and I tended to get it after CS to back-fill by tech trade and be able to build units other than warriors! Typically the second city would then churn out archers, then spears if permitted, while the capital does the settlers.

I think Pyramids is a lucky luxury for industrial civs with stone - hence not really a part of the strat that can be counted on. Worth a stab afterwards in the mega city if you don't mind getting cash-back on a failed attempt, but unlike the Oracle-CS, is not a bankable part of this strategy.

Hats off to Aeson & DeepO for their work on this.

[Arrian]

I also found that Civs with Agriculture but not Mysticism can get the Library & Acadamy done faster via AH than the religious branch, and are less likely to get a settler out before hand - but will get to CS quicker.

Yeah, that's the route I used when playing China. They start with agriculture and... mining I think.

-Arrian

[V3nom]

yep Agriculture and mining for China. They're who I'm currently testing the CS beeline with. I started with India but I'm increasingly finding that founding an early religion is overrated.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by V3nom
yep Agriculture and mining for China. They're who I'm currently testing the CS beeline with. I started with India but I'm increasingly finding that founding an early religion is overrated.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Especially when the neighbours take offence that it's not their religion, and they've got a ton of archers and I've got about two warriors. The extra 1 happiness in the capital is handy if there are no early luxuries nearby, but I can probably wait for the Shrine from the Oracle's GP.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by V3nom
yep Agriculture and mining for China. They're who I'm currently testing the CS beeline with. I started with India but I'm increasingly finding that founding an early religion is overrated.

Sure is. Confucism, IIRC, is the first religion that gives you a missionary to start, which gives you a nice boost to compensate for it coming a little later. If you're doing the CS beeline, it's not all that much later anyway!

China (Qin) and India seem to me to be the best civs for this approach.

-Arrian

[Datajack Franit]

So my beeline is:


playing as Bismarck so I start with mining and hunting- then I go for

agriculture/animal husbandry
bronze working
fishing
meditation -> all the way to theocracy