Technology beelining

[Krill]

Nah, Vel, I'm English. I've just got some really bad communication skills...

One thing about this strat is that it is very easy to use it in an OCC game. Just substitute a/some worker/s into the build scedule, and away you go...and a cottage cheese strat is a good idea for OCC...as is getting lots of religions and hence shrines, and monastries for the extra beakers...

[DeepO]

Thanks for all the nice words, guys. Now please stop before you make me blush!

Originally posted by Dimension
I really don't have a problem with someone being sarcastic and making fun of me. I did put some time into a post which tells you my take on the farseer strategy, though

You completely misunderstood me. That would have been rude. Further, this had nothing to do with being a grammar nazi, not much point to that, as I'm struggling in English (yeah, yeah, thanks for all the comments, but I know you're all being nice. My English is far from good).

But perhaps you could reread your own post, and think how it was perceived by me. I had no idea it had anything to do with the farseer beeline. You quote one sentence from Fried, but in the end you give a tech path which let's you discover Metal casting as the 7th tech. That's not a beeline, and this has nothing to do with grammar: you can have a beeline for Metal Casting as well: with Ghandi that would be discovering MC as the 4th tech.

So what is wrong with pointing out you're not beelining? I was under the impression that you simply didn't understand the term, hence the confusion. Maybe I should have been more explicit, I'll grant you that. OTOH, I type enough text here already.

, and you didn't even acknowledge the effort. You simply replied to tell me how I screwed up.

Acknowledge the effort? Excuse me? What do you want, a big thank you because you wrote down your version of a strategy, which hasn't helped me at all (as you can see above, I was a bit ahead of you)? I read your post like so many here: somebody posting his playstyle, giving a good starting point for discussion, where somebody else takes that position to give his version, etc. I tried to give my take on your situation, and instead of seeing the meaning behind my words, you thought I was being rude.

Acknowledge the effort... phht... like I get acknowledgements for the past 8000 posts on this forum, most of them longer than your post. Please keep those 8000 thank you's, that's not the reason I write here.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Velociryx
* Safety increases with map size (and to a lesser extent, no pangea)

Problem is, that on smaller maps it truely shines. Higher risk, yes, but also higher gains.

I think that Deep O's settler in the mix is essential to strengthening the strategy overall, else too much risk is run of falling behind by way of expansion. At least with one extra settler out there, you have the option of building a few troops while running this way, and/or continuing the expansion drive thru the second city. Much stronger than just the straight beeline.

I'm not so sure on this... I think it heavily depends on situation. I've done a couple of games where I had a worker, but not a settler before starting the Oracle. I also had a couple of games where I had workers nor settlers. I also had 2 settlers and a worker before building the Oracle... there is a lot of variation possible. If you build a settler, you don't have time to build warriors, so your second city needs to start on that immediately... but not settling a second city and building a couple of warriors instead can work very good as well. It will give you CS sooner, which means you can catch up in expansion faster.

Further, pratitioners should note that tech for tech's sake doesn't win the game....at some point, sooner or later, you've actually gotta BUILD some somethings to make victory happen, so while this will give you a shot in the arm, tech-wise, and enable you to keep pace with the AI on higher difficulties (and OUTPACE them on lower), it falls to you to than make the most of your newfound research capabilities, and convert that into the actual win.

I'm not sure if this also includes something else I've been seeing a lot in my (test)games: after CS, I nearly always hit a hole... The next tech is very heavily dependent on situation. And I rarely know which one to pick.

There are a couple of easy techs to follow up on CS: alphabet if you are in a peaceful situation with loads of friendly AI around you, or the sea-techs when you're alone on an island. But in many games I found the CS race to be a very specific goal, but once you reach it, it's like starting a new game again (but with the production and tech shot-in-the-arm). You can decide which path to take again: expansion, vertical growth, military, etc... you know a bit more of the situation around you, but OTOH the rest of the world has a lead in certain areas (growth, or certain techs)

One of my favourites is going for alphabet, than beelining (with some diversions) towards liberalism. Or, a beeline to education-music might be good too: 2 free scientists in your capital (which already has the academy and a lib), and a GA to culture bomb yourself a bit more territory. Or, cats and maceman focus. Or, knights focus (although I haven't succeeded yet in doing this in a good way from CS). Or, the religions... too many options, even more than at the start.

DeepO

[DeepO]

While we're talking favourite beelines (not necessarily CS-related), I absolutely love going straigth for cannons. People complain that they come too late? Well... try to go for them first. Cannons are great for dealing with longbows: have a couple bombarding cultural defenses down, then bombard the units with a city raider promoted cannon... unlike cats, they will hardly ever lose before grenadiers and rifles appear (which will be quite a while after you got cannons if you are commited to them). Aa city raider III cannon is a very powerful tool until late in the game!

DeepO

[Mujadaddy]

Originally posted by DeepO
While we're talking favourite beelines (not necessarily CS-related), I absolutely love going straigth for cannons. People complain that they come too late? Well... try to go for them first. Cannons are great for dealing with longbows: have a couple bombarding cultural defenses down, then bombard the units with a city raider promoted cannon... unlike cats, they will hardly ever lose before grenadiers and rifles appear (which will be quite a while after you got cannons if you are commited to them). Aa city raider III cannon is a very powerful tool until late in the game!

DeepO

Yes, Cannons are INCREDIBLY effective, especially if you get them first!

Interesting strategy, here DeepO... I think what I've learned that is most important is the "early 2-scientists" idea, as I'm usually going for Max Population...so I suppose the 2-scientists would only SLOW my growth-fetish and catapult my science rather significantly... (I have not mastered the nuances of Great People yet --- still using the Civ1 strategies )

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Mujadaddy
Yes, Cannons are INCREDIBLY effective, especially if you get them first!

Interesting strategy, here DeepO... I think what I've learned that is most important is the "early 2-scientists" idea, as I'm usually going for Max Population...so I suppose the 2-scientists would only SLOW my growth-fetish and catapult my science rather significantly... (I have not mastered the nuances of Great People yet --- still using the Civ1 strategies )

Yeah, the scientists make a lot possible. If you would be going for an all-religion game, it generally pays off to pass by writing on your way. You will get less prophets, but one acadamy can make all the difference you need.

If you're looking at how to use GPs to further your research, try to look at what your future path will bring you.

- If it leads passed e.g. education or paper, try to have a greats scientist ready (they are generally easy to make, as you will have libs in some city. Even at 6GPP, they will get there eventually. In the mean time, the science is nice coming from any city).
- If your beeline path leads by e.g. machinery, consider to sacrifice a GE (although wonders are always nice).
- If you pass banking, try to build a merchant.
- If you pass a religion tech (e.g. theology, philisophy), keep a prophet for tech.

GPs have certain likes and dislikes to which tech they will discover. That generally dictates which one you'll get, but if you plan it well it will also let you to beeline even further.

The philosophy grab with a prophet works well with a CS beeline:
- Your capital starts out with two scientists.
- First 100 GPP --> academy.
- You stop the scientists, discover CoL, spread Confucianism to your capital, build a temple
- in the mean time, improve your land so your capital can grow, build a settler.
- the moment you can, switch to a priest. Together with the GPP from the Oracle, you should have 5GPP towards a prophet.
- research all prereq techs for philo, and also make sure you have not left a cheaper religion tech to grab (as the prophet will take that first). By this I mean that sometimes you don't research a tech: not researching masonry will not make monotheism available. Good, you don't want to lose a prophet on that.
- By the time you reach 200 GPP, you should have everything ready. Discover philosophy for free.

If you time this right, you should be able to get philo without any detour: You are going to need to catch up on lower techs after a CS beeline, so picking the right ones first is not so 'expensive'. And at that stage of the game, philo is still important: it will give you taoism.

BTW, going to theology is also possible using the same strat.

DeepO

[Mujadaddy]

I will have to digest all this info in tiny, tiny bites. Thanks though

[Dimension]

Originally posted by DeepO
So what is wrong with pointing out you're not beelining? I was under the impression that you simply didn't understand the term

So your intention was to be friendly and helpful? That's becoming more and more suspect.

Originally posted by DeepO
Acknowledge the effort? Excuse me? What do you want, a big thank you because you wrote down your version of a strategy, which hasn't helped me at all (as you can see above, I was a bit ahead of you)?

Let me get this straight. You've made it quite clear that:

1) I'm stupid and don't know what "beeline" means
2) My post, which directly answered a question of yours, was not helpful in any way
3) You already know more than I do so I am incapable of helping you

And you want to know why you have been accused multiple times of being rude? Give me a break.

[DeepO]

Dimension, I suspect you're one of those guys who simply wants to see rudeness everywhere, so that you've got something to complain about. You're twisting my words again. This is the last time I answer you on this topic, so whether you respond or not I don't care. If you really want to see evil, I'm sure you can pick apart any of my posts and come up with something that offends you. You're welcome to continue the actual discussion on the MC beeline, if you want.

So your intention was to be friendly and helpful? That's becoming more and more suspect.

Why didn't you start out with this assumption? Why the negative image? Yes, I wanted to be helpful, and I'm bothered that I've got to tell you that before you will even consider that that was my intention in the first place. If you start out with whole the world out to attack you, I'm sure that you will see it plenty of times. That doesn't mean it's true.

Let me get this straight. You've made it quite clear that:

1) I'm stupid and don't know what "beeline" means

I did not say that. But I had to think when I first read the term, it's not an English word they learn in school. And I've seen more people not getting the term. So it could be that you didn't know it either. This has nothing to do with being stupid. Am I stupid because the first few times I saw the word (many years ago), I wasn't fully sure of its intention? Thank you very much.

2) My post, which directly answered a question of yours, was not helpful in any way

Well, if it was intended to help me out, it surely didn't. I don't get that reasoning, though. In here, I'm talking about beelining, about variations on the CS start, about stuff that might be advanced after less than a month of play.

Somebody posts a quote about a farseer start, mentioning the use of the Oracle to grab MC. I'm interested, as I've done a couple of MC starts myself, but haven't used the Oracle for that: One of the only reason to do so would be speed. MC is relatively easy to research without the help of the Oracle, which means that Fried will be doing something else with the time won. Is he researching some techs? Which ones? AH for horses, perhaps? Is it pure about speed, meaning a forge before his first settler? Does he stop research alltogether and saves for upgrades? Stuff like that.

I am interested in that. I'm not interested in somebody pointing out that you need to get to the Oracle first, after which you have all the time in the world to research BW. That's the most basic path you can take. I already know that one, obviously, so somebody writing that down is not going to help me, no. If you would have a strat which e.g. beelines for alphabet, trade for the techs you need, complete the Oracle right after you've got everything, and thus use this to get MC... now that would be a strat which would be helpful!

There are plenty of different starts with the MC oracle grab somewhere in between. I've done it a couple of times while on my way to optics, for instance: have a beeline for optics, but use the Oracle to grab MC.

So forgive me, but I didn't catch at all that the intention of your post would be to help me. You simply write down what is basic information to me. And instead of quoting my question, you quote the 1-sentence summary of Fried, which basically says the same thing, only more condensed. Maybe I'm missing something, and is there something special with your path, but I sure am not seeing it in your initial post. And now I'm looking for it, instead of browsing the forum late after work, casually responding to posts.

BTW, this is what you've got to say in that post:

Then you can get Metal Casting from The Oracle. I'm not sure what the best way is to go after that, though.

This is one of the triggers for me to say that you can also beeline, instead of taking the flat approach. I was wrong before, BTW, you of course also need pottery. So you can have the Oracle as tech #6, not tech #4. It's the wheel which is a detour and thus a waste of time.

Now, if you would have said to go for BW right after Priesthood, and use the freshly built worker to chop Oracle together, that would have been a strategy. Simply translating Fried's 'complete the Oracle after gonig to pottery and BW' into the most flat approach I've seen in a while is not special.

BTW: you're talking about timing the Oracle built, and not having time going for Judaism before it completes: normally, in this path you don't need Judaism at all. You want IW, this is a military start and you already have a religion, most likely. Further, there is no penalty of completing a tech (say Monotheism) right after building the Oracle: you don't have to time techs which are not prereqs for the tech you're aiming at with the Oracle. Maybe they finish sooner, maybe they finish later... it doesn't matter.

3) You already know more than I do so I am incapable of helping you

Look, I've been playing this game since June. I do know more then you, most likely. I wasn't picked for being slow in the first place, and I got a half year lead before you were even able to buy the game. But that doesn't mean you can't teach me a new trick, or in the discussion on a certain topic we can't come to new insights. This is one of the biggest reasons for being active in this forum for me: I learn new things every day.

It also means that when someone talks about using the Oracle to get to MC, I've got a pretty good idea of what the most flat approach would be. You're not helping me by writing that down, what's so difficult to accepting that?

Now, I tried to pick up on your path, tried to discuss it. Perhaps my first post wasn't too clear on that, but I've done it in the next posts (including this one) as well. You don't want to see your initial post as a starting point of debate, instead you only want to make a fuss about me being rude or not.

So no, you're not helping me, and it seems you might even be incapable of doing so. This has nothing to do with insight or intelligence, but all to do with attitude: you seem to be blinded by being overly focused on seeing bad, evil things in people who are obviously out to badmouth you, calling you stupid.

Guess what, the whole world is not like that. I am irl a pretty friendly guy, and if I come over as rude on forums it has more to do with me writing in a foreign language, and not understanding when something I write can be understood as rudeness.

As I said, for me this discussion is over. You are welcome to continue on the MC path, as I am interested in learning more about any tech beelining. Who knows, perhaps you can learn something too.

DeepO

[Dimension]

Originally posted by DeepO
This has nothing to do with insight or intelligence, but all to do with attitude: you seem to be blinded by being overly focused on seeing bad, evil things in people who are obviously out to badmouth you, calling you stupid.

If you're going to feign good intentions at every step while continuing to use a blatantly rude tone, I can't stop you.

It's comical that you freely admit multiple people have pointed out your lack of social skills, yet you still are convinced that I'm just "focused on seeing bad."

No hard feelings, though. People who are easily offended shouldn't have web browsers in the first place.

[Xaintrix]

I may be no mod, but could I ask a favor and if either side wishes to continue this back and forth to please take it to PMs?

I really like the Civ related content brought up in this thread.

[DrSpike]

I quite agree.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Xaintrix
I really like the Civ related content brought up in this thread.

me too... I was looking for an opportunity to get this thread back on track... anyone has some specific subject to talk about? The use of GPs in a tech beeline for instance?

the Philo grab is one such example, but I'm certainly interested in other possibilities. I always have problems in ending one beeline, and starting the next one: not enough goals, it seems, or always something 'lower' which I absolutely need.

DeepO

[Artuero]

I tend to beeline at all times. I have a tendency to overbuild (actually it isn't a tendency, I do it all the time), so it is not often that I have to research a quick tech to keep the cities busy, at least not until the modern era when I have some very productive cities and have been rush buying improvements.

So, if I am not going for a specific wonder or unit to meet a particular need, I will beeline for a tech that gives me something for getting there first:

The religious techs (Meditation, Polytheism, Monotheism, Code of Laws, Philosophy, Theology, Divine Right),

The GP techs (Music, Economics, Physics and Fusion),

Liberalism (free tech) and

Alphabet (for tech trading)

On top of those, I look to techs that give my workers a lot to do, such as replaceable parts (I tend to keep forests and use a lot of lumbermills) and railroad.

Towards the end of the game I have been beelining for fiber optics on the theory that by building the Internet I could coast. I think I will stop doing that now as if things are going well enough that I will be the first to build it I am not actually going to get many techs from it.

Those are some general standby beelines. The first-to-discover techs seem espcially useful to discover first because they often don't do much for the second person to discover them other than provide a stepping stone. So they tend to be easy trades.

My games so far have been with a lot of other civs (18) so it is usually very easy for me to backfill through trading when I do need something to do.

[DeepO]

maybe this is interesting, something I already posted in DAR #4 of the AU game:

The problem with beelining, is that it can get you too advanced. Yep, you read that right.

Whenever you are too far ahead, the popups on the non-tradeable techs become "we fear you're becoming too advanced", instead of "we don't like you enough", or "we don't want to trade this tech yet". When this happens, you need to hit the brakes, and go for lower techs (or halt research alltogether). Beelines work best when you're not too advanced, but just in front of the pack: by having monopoly techs, you can trade for all the other ones.

In this game, going for Education straigthaway would probably have lead to that. I want to avoid that. I'm still safe: I'm not trading CS, and even if Alphabet was discovered a couple of turns ago by the AIs, they won't get CS easily. It closes off the education beeline, with Liberalism I'd like to get to first. I'm already dreaming of 20 turns of unhampered cavs...

So, for the moment, I'm going to do some lower techs. Compass now. MC next. Machinery and Drama soon. And possibly Philosophy too (although I decide to wait. I like Angkor Wat, but not enough to delay my forges ).

In the mean time, I'll keep an eye out for CS. The moment one of the AIs gets it, I'm rushing forward to Education. There, I build another waiting point: I'll probably do 1 or 2 turns of research, after going to something else. The moment somone reaches Edu, I go for Liberalism.

That's the best spot, at least in my experience, right in front of the AIs. Easier to deal with, and the moment you need to you push everything forward for a beeline. I intend to do that with either Cannons or Cavs (Cannons preferred, but I'll probably pass by cavs first)

The AU game might be of some interest here: Some of us are using the CS-beeline, I've done CS, Music, and am now on my way to Liberalism myself. Next will be either a cannons or a cavs beeline.

DeepO