Technology beelining

[V3nom]

this start (including the pyramids) is doable even on higher difficulty levels. I just played a game on Emperor as Ghandi where I managed to snare the oracle and pyramids.

basically my research went like this:

1)Meditation. (got hinduism)
2)Agriculture
3)Animal husbandary (this way is 20 tech points more expensive than pottery, but I had cows I wanted to use and cottages arent AS important when relying on your scientists for research)
4)bronze working
5)masonary
6)priesthood
7)writing
8)Code of laws

while my capital basically did this:

1)settler
2)settler
3)warrior
4)worker

the reason I was able to pull off 2 settlers right off the bat was that I had founded ontop of some sugar and had other food bonus tiles in my city radius. I also had to sacrifice alot of exploring with my initial warrior to protect them.

this is the start if you're curious: I founded on the sugar one tile to the left of where the settler currently is.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/VenomLord/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

it should also be noted that the pyramids were built with alot of chopping

[DeepO]

Originally posted by khumak
The fastest path to Civil Service is through Priesthood but the fastest path to Writing is through AH. Pottery would work too except it has 2 prereqs so unless you start with both it takes longer. I generally discover Writing before I have time to build 1 scout + 1 worker but I complete the worker anyway and then start building the library while I improve my terrain.

I'm not saying that you can't get to writing faster, however the real goal is CS here. So whichever option brings you writing fastest while also giving you CS asap is perfect.

It heavily depends on situation though: AH is the perfect tech when you've got horses nearby, for instance. Adn with cows it's a nobrainer too.

True but it is technically one of the techs you can get from a goodie hut. So is AH. A nice side benefit for using scouts. I find that I almost never get a tech when scouting with warriors but most games I do get 1 with a scout.

You can get any tech: Terra maps can give you new techs very late in the game. Scouts are a lot better though: gaining a tech with a warrior is an exception. And later on, huts are likely going to be protected by barbs, so that scouts can't take them anymore.

I don't think it's really costing any time to research the worker techs because I'm getting to library faster than you are and since my terrain is improved I'm building it faster than you are too. Plus unless you don't plan on even building a worker until after you get Civil Service you're going to have to research a worker tech or two as well in between there somewhere.

Aha, that's the real issue. Why do you always need a worker? It's a totally different game, but you can get to CS without one. Also, your path is one of the variations. Look at this one for instance:
1. warrior
2. settler (partly)
3. lib
4. settler (the rest of it)
5. Oracle

next in line will be worker, unless you somehow can catch an AI one, or have your 2nd city is a worker pump.

I've only been building Stonehenge because it's cheap and to guarantee that my 2nd city will expand in time for me to gain use of it's special resources without me having to place it right next to the resource. I think I'll probably switch to Parthenon and ignore Stonehenge next time though because I noticed that this new path I've been taking results in my first religion being founded in my 2nd city so I can get my city expansion from that. And yes I wait so I can guarantee that the first GP I get is a scientist. That is an absolute must.

Academy is what makes this start shine, yes. And any city outside your capital is preferred when founding a religion... Stonehenge is ok, but I rarely build it. Expanding my borders is mostly done in other ways.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by V3nom
this is the start if you're curious: I founded on the sugar one tile to the left of where the settler currently is.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/VenomLord/Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

it should also be noted that the pyramids were built with alot of chopping

Interesting starting pos... I would probably have taken the clams by settling where you started, but that means you won't have hills later on.

DeepO

[V3nom]

I only had one hills in the radius after the move... the real key was the 1 extra food I got in my capitals square. Basically it meant that I could get a 5 turn advantage of the first 2 settlers.

also by moving it turns out I bought in an extra suger 1 square to the left which I would have missed anyway. The clams will be bought into the culture radius for health eventually anyway and resource wise give less than the sugar when improved.

also the tech progression might be SLIGHTLY out of order, I'll have to load one of the saves and look through the event log to see.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by V3nom
also by moving it turns out I bought in an extra suger 1 square to the left which I would have missed anyway. The clams will be bought into the culture radius for health eventually anyway and resource wise give less than the sugar when improved.

Well, that is choice given here: you could also try the start going by fishery, workboat, and clams. It gives you more of a food boost without the need for a worker at all, and has the extra advantage that it would also give you 2 commerce... even more commerce so early on, yummie!

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, BTW, your extra sugar point doesn't hold: you also lose a sugar on the city square. Even after calender it won't net you more than it already gives.

DeepO

[V3nom]

that is true, I end up with a total of -1 food and -2 commerce if every tile in the city was worked. But I judged the short term gain worth it.

The commerce is something I didnt think about, I guess I didnt want to waste those turns on fishing early on. It would only have been useful to that one city while irrigation helped my 2 other cities (which were founded next to floodplains).

I still have the start save so I'm tempted to play through it again to see how it would have turned out differently. or I could post it here if anyone else wants to see how they go at it to compare notes about this strategy when we're playing with exactly the same variables.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by V3nom
that is true, I end up with a total of -1 food and -2 commerce if every tile in the city was worked. But I judged the short term gain worth it.

Well, yes, but sugar is typically a resource which is not a short term investment. That would be my first feeling towards clams: they are available early on. And the rest of your land doesn't require a worker (the wheat, obviously, but that's about it. A workboat is cheaper than a worker if it only concerns one tile)

Which is why I said the hills were important: you started with mining, and could use the hill to get your lib faster.

The commerce is something I didnt think about, I guess I didnt want to waste those turns on fishing early on. It would only have been useful to that one city while irrigation helped my 2 other cities (which were founded next to floodplains).

Classical mistake, and it's because of Civ3. Commerce is as important as food and production! That tile can give you the difference in early religion races, to name but one example.

I still have the start save so I'm tempted to play through it again to see how it would have turned out differently. or I could post it here if anyone else wants to see how they go at it to compare notes about this strategy when we're playing with exactly the same variables.

That's something I do all the time. Sometimes, I play out starts 3 or 4 times: once for exploration of the map, and then a couple of times with different strategies. Comparison of where you stand at e.g. the discovery of alphabet, or at 1 AD can be a good measure. You can see the differences: in this particular situation, what are the weak points of a start, and which are the benefits? How can I prevent the weak points from becoming problems, and how can I further exploit the benefits? Now that I know that I have an agressive neighbour too close by, who is pressed for land, how can I prevent him crushing me, while still playing out a start which is not entirely bend on destroying him before he gets any ideas? Etc.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by V3nom
I still have the start save so I'm tempted to play through it again to see how it would have turned out differently. or I could post it here if anyone else wants to see how they go at it to compare notes about this strategy when we're playing with exactly the same variables.

Forgot to mention: sure, I'm interested. If you post the save I'll give it a go, but probably not tonight. What type of map and level is this, BTW?

DeepO

[V3nom]

Emperor level and continents.

I've played it through again today and I couldnt even get the entire 'ideal start' again even though I knew the map, so I must have been extremely lucky the first time through.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=68896_AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.Civ4SavedGame

is the save

[Bobby Chicken]

Blitzing construction I consider the best early rush. Culture, health, millitary; it provides it all.

[trev]

I always go for military techs and bronze early, bronze because I like the shield boost for early production, military to defend myself against barbs and maybe conquer their cities when they build them. Conquering instead of building cities gives me the cities AND experienced units

[cal_01]

Doing some playtests, I found that tech beelining isn't necessarily a good thing. For instance, if I beeline to Civil Service, the beakers needed for each tech starts ramping up to the point where I seriously fall behind.

IMO, the early beeline should be for any one of the early religions. If not, then getting Bronze Working for Slavery and chopping trees. After that, beelining to Alphabet after getting the core farming/fishing/etc techs seems to be prudent.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by cal_01
Doing some playtests, I found that tech beelining isn't necessarily a good thing. For instance, if I beeline to Civil Service, the beakers needed for each tech starts ramping up to the point where I seriously fall behind.

I don't understand what you mean here: you are given a bonus when catching up a tech, you are not giving a penalty. So, there is a mechanic in the game which will advantage beelines...

DeepO

[cal_01]

Originally posted by DeepO

I don't understand what you mean here: you are given a bonus when catching up a tech, you are not giving a penalty. So, there is a mechanic in the game which will advantage beelines...

DeepO

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you'd have to go back and get those techs, as opposed to having those techs now.

Don't get me wrong; IMO, some short term beelining is good. But beelining for things too far off can seriously hinder tech advancement.

edit: As an example, blind beelining in the beginning can result in missing Library (which helps researching a lot) or even Animal Husbandry -- which is vital for a lot of resources. I advocate a somewhat flexible beeline, but nothing too strict.