Technology beelining

[DeepO]

Originally posted by khumak
The civil service beeline does work surprisingly well but from what I've noticed this is only true if your first city starts off in a very good spot where it can quickly grow. I've been trying to tweak my research and build orders to where I still have time to build a couple of warriors, 1 worker, and a settler before the library so my expansion doesn't totally grind to a halt. If I wind up in a spot with no special resources useable before calendar and mostly plains or hills then this strategy doesn't work very well at all.

I really recommend that you try to build a settler after you stuff your lib full. Aeson's genius lays not in going for civil service, but in using 2 scientists to get there. Settlers for me are in between the lib and the oracle builds, most of the times.

As to food: It's true, you do need some food. however, I've done this plenty of times at size 4: 2 tiles with food (one resource and a irr grass for instance), 2 scientists. I've done it once at size 3, micromanaging between 2 and 1 scientist, running a food deficit for about 2 thirds of the turns. It beats size 4 when it comes to when CS is given.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
Pull off CS w/Oracle *and* build the Pyramids, thus meaning I can use representation + bureacracy + caste system, really early. Oh, and also expand fairly well and defend myself.

With Ghandi, it's possible to get the pyramids as well... I pulled it off (maybe I was lucky though), but lost further on because I had very little units. Once in the habit of going the builder route, you need focus to break away from that mind setting... I didn't do it in time.

The key is building the pyramids after Oracle completes. You possibly can use the pyramid build to delay the Oracle (instead of building warriors or so in between), in the game I played I had stone, but not marble. I didn't need to delay the Oracle.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Yeah, I built the Pyramids first, and did too much non-essential research. I also built 2 settlers in my capital before wonderbuilding commenced. That wasn't really the problem, though. My research path was the main issue.

I used only 1 scientist, too, because I was building the Oracle in my capital and wanted a balance of production and science... perhaps I would've been better served to build the Oracle elsewhere and go with more specialists in the capital.

...

Later on I found myself running at ~50% science due, I think, to unit support costs. Dedicating City #2 to units meant that I had a solid military and wasn't getting pushed around by the AI, but it cost me. So then I USED said military, and things went swimmingly.

I'm getting the hang of this...

-Arrian

[Dog of Justice]

The 2 scientists to Civil Service beeline is even better than Aeson thinks, because Bureaucracy's commerce bonus is MULTIPLICATIVE. So Bureaucracy/Library/Academy is actually +162.5% to research, not just +125% as he posts. The Academy contributes +75% to the combination, not just +50%!

[Arrian]

Hmm... I've got to pay closer attention to the step-by-step details of the plan. More focused research, the two scientists...

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dog of Justice
The 2 scientists to Civil Service beeline is even better than Aeson thinks, because Bureaucracy's commerce bonus is MULTIPLICATIVE. So Bureaucracy/Library/Academy is actually +162.5% to research, not just +125% as he posts. The Academy contributes +75% to the combination, not just +50%!

This surely made my day... I'm pretty sure Aeson did see this, you know. I mentioned it in my post, and I've only been playing this start for a week or so. Aeson's probably be using it for years now...

So he got the numbers wrong, that doesn't mean he is not aware of all effects. And as I posted as well: you are not required to pull off your scientists once your great scientist completes. You can keep them in your capital, which can boost your bpt rate even higher. However, you are already so much of an advantage, you can spare the scientists for e.g. priests: Oracle gives prophet points, and you will have at least one holy shrine to build.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm... I've got to pay closer attention to the step-by-step details of the plan. More focused research, the two scientists...

-Arrian

The two scientists are crucial for maximum efficiency. It's the academy you're after...

What I like about this is that you can variate endlessly with this start: you have enough time to reach your target without absolutely beelining for it. However wait too long and you will lose.

DeepO

[Dog of Justice]

Originally posted by DeepO

The two scientists are crucial for maximum efficiency. It's the academy you're after...

What I like about this is that you can variate endlessly with this start: you have enough time to reach your target without absolutely beelining for it. However wait too long and you will lose.

DeepO

In my most recent game I researched Civil Service "honestly", and got Education (!!!) with the Oracle. But I'm pretty sure that won't work past Noble...

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
I used only 1 scientist, too, because I was building the Oracle in my capital and wanted a balance of production and science... perhaps I would've been better served to build the Oracle elsewhere and go with more specialists in the capital.

balancing science in your capital is important, however you definately wiated too long. 2 settlers will mean for sure you won't have enough time for the Oracle to complete in a timely fashion. With only 1 settler (which is still pretyy good expansion at this point in the game), it is naturally balanced: you need the scientists for research and academy, and in a normal setting you get the GS around the time CS is discovered. At that point, switch to production.

Another variation is building a temple in between, so you can switch a scientist to a priest. But than it becomes a risk game: how much certainty do you need to generate a GS and not a GP? 90%? 80%? Less?

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dog of Justice


In my most recent game I researched Civil Service "honestly", and got Education (!!!) with the Oracle. But I'm pretty sure that won't work past Noble...

You can beeline that way higher in level as well, however it also means you're foregoing on the earlier techs longer. A great scientist at that point in the game will also give you education...

DeepO

[DeepO]

BTW, Oracle in another city might work... but that's a specialty situation. It certainly won't always be possible to get such production up so fast.

DeepO

[Arrian]

DeepO - I'm not convinced the 2nd settler was the problem at all, but rather a not-focused-enough tech path.

I could've made up production time with one or two more chops (I had a LOT of forest). My problem was that I took too long to get to CoL. The settler didn't slow that down (much). My choice of going after alphabet most certainly did.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
DeepO - I'm not convinced the 2nd settler was the problem at all, but rather a not-focused-enough tech path.

I could've made up production time with one or two more chops (I had a LOT of forest). My problem was that I took too long to get to CoL. The settler didn't slow that down (much). My choice of going after alphabet most certainly did.

-Arrian

Maybe you're just taking the risk of this start on another level. I take it on what I build early: most of the times, I won't have bronze working (and thus can't chop). You take the risk on the Oracle: I have never missed that one...

For extremes, try to pull of the next tech path with Ghandi:
1. polytheism
2. priesthood
3. writing
4. CoL

capital build queue:
1. warrior
2. worker
3. lib
4. Oracle

If you are ready with the worker before writing (quite possible), build parts of the oracle. If your Oracle is too fast, build (parts of) a settler or a warrior.

With Ghandi, this works because you start with agriculture (IIRC), and mysticism. your worker can irrigate, providing the food needed to run the scientists.

DeepO

[DeepO]

BTW, there is more stuff the Oracle can give you. I'm thinking on Monarchy, Alphabet, religions... the wonder is part of the early tech tree beelining, and it certainly is not the only option to go for CS with it.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Wow, yeah, that's awfully focused. I'd want at least 1 settler out the door first...

The other tech I used to grab via the Oracle was Metal Casting (forges ). But I'm trying to perfect my useage of this particular beeline... and then I'll go on to something else.

-Arrian