Technology beelining

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
Wow, yeah, that's awfully focused. I'd want at least 1 settler out the door first...

Not that important, I'm afraid. Not building a settler means more production earlier. You can quickly catch up. It does focus your capital even more.

What is my detour in nearly all games, is a worker tech: something that is going to give my worker something to do with the resources nearby. Or the wheel to get some roading done.

DeepO

[Dog of Justice]

Originally posted by DeepO



This surely made my day... I'm pretty sure Aeson did see this, you know. I mentioned it in my post, and I've only been playing this start for a week or so. Aeson's probably be using it for years now...

So he got the numbers wrong, that doesn't mean he is not aware of all effects. And as I posted as well: you are not required to pull off your scientists once your great scientist completes. You can keep them in your capital, which can boost your bpt rate even higher. However, you are already so much of an advantage, you can spare the scientists for e.g. priests: Oracle gives prophet points, and you will have at least one holy shrine to build.

DeepO

As soon as I have my Academy, I'd rather have the great scientists working cottages...

As for the multiplicative commerce bonus, you do realize that the Bureaucracy production bonus (and every other explicit percentage bonus in the game, I think) is NOT multplicative? This makes it rather weak, while the commerce bonus is borderline insane.

[Aeson]

Nice catch DoJ. I didn't know the Bureaucracy bonus was multiplicative with other % bonuses. I wasn't even really sure if it was a base commerce bonus, or a gold only bonus either. Was just going off memory to give one example of how big city starts can compete with faster expansion.

If it is multiplicative with other % bonuses, it might need to be fixed though.

-------------------

Don't forget that this type of start can also be combined with chopping and even military too. Fitting in Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry can work. Then if you have a military resource, instead of a Settler you can go with a Barracks and units and go conquer some cities instead of found them. Quechas can work well even without Horses or Copper.

There are valid reasons to chop the Settler, Barracks/units, or the Granary/Library if forced to choose. Chopping towards the Oracle with IND/Marble is a good option too.

[Arrian]

Ok, last night I made it work. Ghandi, Prince, standard as usual.

Tech: polytheism (founded hindu), agriculture (had wheat), animal (cows in cap & #2 city site), and then straight at CoL.

I built warrior-worker-warrior-settler-library-oracle-pyramids-great library, IIRC. My #2 city had stone, which obviously was the key to getting the pyramids. No marble.

After taking CS from the Oracle, I backfilled, obviously, and then grabbed Philo for Pacifism, which meant I founded religion #3 - Taoism. That was actually a bit annoying... I wanted my empire Confucian. New cities, however, had a chance of becoming Hindu or Taoist (as well as Conf). Missionaries became more necessary for my own empire than I would've liked.

Overall, I feel this worked well, but not spectacularly well (like I'd hoped). I was running Representation + Bureacracy + Caste + Pacifism quite early. I got a fair number of great people (3 great engineers, at least three great prohets, 3 or 4 great scientists, 2 artists).

The downside is that other things get neglected and take longer to come online. BW/IW. Metal Casting (forges). Cottages. Stuff like that. So, while I'm the #1 empire, I'm not farther out in front than I've been in other games where I didn't pull this off... or at least it feels that way. I'll grant, however, that my land in this game was not as good as several other games I've had. So, if all things had been equal, I might be doing even better.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by DeepO

Maybe you're just taking the risk of this start on another level. I take it on what I build early: most of the times, I won't have bronze working (and thus can't chop). You take the risk on the Oracle: I have never missed that one...

For extremes, try to pull of the next tech path with Ghandi:
1. polytheism
2. priesthood
3. writing
4. CoL

capital build queue:
1. warrior
2. worker
3. lib
4. Oracle

If you are ready with the worker before writing (quite possible), build parts of the oracle. If your Oracle is too fast, build (parts of) a settler or a warrior.

With Ghandi, this works because you start with agriculture (IIRC), and mysticism. your worker can irrigate, providing the food needed to run the scientists.

DeepO

I just tried the above with Gandhi, and it worked nicely, but without the scientists, as he starts with mining, rather than agriculture - so no irrigation. I had a minable gold near the start (and moved to settle within range of it) which pushed up the tech rate for CoL. Otherwise, the scientists without fast growth would have slowed production down a lot.

[Arrian]

The gold mine makes up for the lack of scientists, I'd imagine.

I found that detouring for Farming and Animal Husbandry was fine, though (on Prince).

-Arrian

[khumak]

The absolute fastest path to library is a civ that starts with either Agriculture or Hunting. That leaves only 2 hops to library (Animal Husbandry + Writing). As a bonus, you're almost guaranteed to start in a location where either Hunting, Agriculture, or Animal Husbandry will give you access to special resources that start out within reach of your first city.

Personally I prefer Hunting because it means you start out with a scout and can quickly build another right away. Since scouts get a bonus for goodie huts I almost always wind up getting a free warrior or two from goodie huts and occasionally a minor tech like Masonry or something.

The downside is that if you go this route you'll get beat to all 3 of the first religions so you won't have a religion til you build the Oracle and get Civil Service.

I started as the Greeks and researched Animal Husbandry and then Writing and my build order went Scout, Worker, Library, Settler. If I didn't get a free warrior from a goodie hut then I'd build a warrior before library.

I prefer this path because it allows me to beeline straight to library and get my acacemy VERY early without having to sacrifice growth because my path leads me right through the most lucrative terrain improvement techs. This also usually speeds up my build time for the library.

I find that Oracle builds way too fast to start on it right after building library even without marble. I've been prebuilding all but 1 turn of Stonehenge and Oracle and then switching to other stuff until I get Code of Law. Then I immediately build both Oracle and Stonehenge. If I have marble then I can probably squeeze in the Parthenon as well.

Hopefully by the time I get my settler out my scouts have found some stone somewhere so I can road my way over there and plop a city down and then build Pyramids on the cheap.

[Dog of Justice]

Originally posted by Aeson
Nice catch DoJ. I didn't know the Bureaucracy bonus was multiplicative with other % bonuses. I wasn't even really sure if it was a base commerce bonus, or a gold only bonus either. Was just going off memory to give one example of how big city starts can compete with faster expansion.

If it is multiplicative with other % bonuses, it might need to be fixed though.

I noted some similar "might need to be fixed" items in this post. Should that have gone in the bug report thread?

Don't forget that this type of start can also be combined with chopping and even military too. Fitting in Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry can work. Then if you have a military resource, instead of a Settler you can go with a Barracks and units and go conquer some cities instead of found them. Quechas can work well even without Horses or Copper.

There are valid reasons to chop the Settler, Barracks/units, or the Granary/Library if forced to choose. Chopping towards the Oracle with IND/Marble is a good option too.

Yeah, I'd definitely get the critical early econ techs before doing the Bureaucracy beeline -- they are so cheap in comparison that they pretty much pay for themselves by the time the beeline is completed. Chop-rushing a few Workers and Settlers allows me to play a normal game with the rest of my empire while I lay the groundwork for my uber-capital.

[Aeson]

The bug thread is probably the best place for those types of observations, but having them in their own thread is also useful I'd think.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Aeson
If it is multiplicative with other % bonuses, it might need to be fixed though.

I think this one was discussed, Aeson... at least I knew about it before the breakdown of the total into its components got included. That's why I assumed you knew as well...

At any rate, at a certain point it's not about the numbers anymore, it's more about your perception. But sometimes, numbers can make a point more clear: Burocracy with an academy makes extreme research possible, and that alone is enough reason to take the risk of this beeline.

As to chopping: indeed, it can be fitted into this scheme well. I try to avoid it, though, but that's my playstyle...

And military instead of peaceful expansion: another very valid option. One I'm still exploring, I know I don't choke enough, and this start does make it a bit harder to do that well. That doesn't mean it's not possible, and the added production can very quickly turn the tides.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
After taking CS from the Oracle, I backfilled, obviously, and then grabbed Philo for Pacifism, which meant I founded religion #3 - Taoism. That was actually a bit annoying... I wanted my empire Confucian. New cities, however, had a chance of becoming Hindu or Taoist (as well as Conf). Missionaries became more necessary for my own empire than I would've liked.

Yeah... this has not so much to do with this start, but with any strategy that will get you multiple religions at a point where you don't have the resources to build missionaries. However, always consider that if it's not your holy city that is spreading an (unwanted) religion, it could also be someone else's... I prefer to get the gold myself

(not to mention that Toaism is the first religion which gives you a free missionary: it's very hard to get a missionary from one of the early 3 before using this one. You can convert an AI faster to Taoism than you would be able to convert him to Hinduism.)

One last point: think before switching to a state religion. The first switch doesn't give anarchy IIRC, and when you are running a couple of scientists you've got a good chance you're not running into happiness problems. In many games, I find myself waiting for Taoism, either using the missionary on my own capital (as your 2nd city will generally become the holy city) in case I want to go conquering, or converting my closest neighbour when I want to be peaceful.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I just tried the above with Gandhi, and it worked nicely, but without the scientists, as he starts with mining, rather than agriculture - so no irrigation. I had a minable gold near the start (and moved to settle within range of it) which pushed up the tech rate for CoL. Otherwise, the scientists without fast growth would have slowed production down a lot.

Ah, sorry... then which industrial starts with agriculture, Napo?

Mineable gold: these are just wonderful... it's the only tile so early on which can give you as much research as 2 scientists can... However for truely devastating effects, if you've got floodplains plus gold, try to use both the gold and scientists. You still need an academy!

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
I found that detouring for Farming and Animal Husbandry was fine, though (on Prince).

On Monarch, you can detour for those 2 techs without much risk either. But more is dangerous.

Note that there are several ways of getting to writing. If you've got cows, AH surely is important, and from there it's also possible to reach writing. Only starting on the priesthood path after your libary completes (e.g. after masonry) means you will get the research bonus too.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by khumak
The absolute fastest path to library is a civ that starts with either Agriculture or Hunting. That leaves only 2 hops to library (Animal Husbandry + Writing). As a bonus, you're almost guaranteed to start in a location where either Hunting, Agriculture, or Animal Husbandry will give you access to special resources that start out within reach of your first city.

No, the theoretical shortest path is via priesthood. You will always need that tech, so there is no need for e.g. AH. Also, pottery is cheaper than AH, and a granary (thus faster growth, and more health) can mean just as much or more than AH.

Personally I prefer Hunting because it means you start out with a scout and can quickly build another right away. Since scouts get a bonus for goodie huts I almost always wind up getting a free warrior or two from goodie huts and occasionally a minor tech like Masonry or something.

Masonry is not a minor tech this early on, when you're going for the Oracle!

I find that Oracle builds way too fast to start on it right after building library even without marble.

That's because you take the time to research worker techs, and improve your land. As I said, the fastest path I had was at size 3 in my capital. There, you need the time for Oracle, it becomes the main timing issue (and not the discovery of CoL)

I've been prebuilding all but 1 turn of Stonehenge and Oracle and then switching to other stuff until I get Code of Law. Then I immediately build both Oracle and Stonehenge. If I have marble then I can probably squeeze in the Parthenon as well.

Stonehenge is not the best of wonders in this path: you have the research power to go to Calender quickly. Plus, why do you wait? Is it for the risk of getting something else than a great scientist? I can udnerstand that

DeepO

[khumak]

Originally posted by DeepO

No, the theoretical shortest path is via priesthood. You will always need that tech, so there is no need for e.g. AH. Also, pottery is cheaper than AH, and a granary (thus faster growth, and more health) can mean just as much or more than AH.

The fastest path to Civil Service is through Priesthood but the fastest path to Writing is through AH. Pottery would work too except it has 2 prereqs so unless you start with both it takes longer. I generally discover Writing before I have time to build 1 scout + 1 worker but I complete the worker anyway and then start building the library while I improve my terrain.

Masonry is not a minor tech this early on, when you're going for the Oracle!

True but it is technically one of the techs you can get from a goodie hut. So is AH. A nice side benefit for using scouts. I find that I almost never get a tech when scouting with warriors but most games I do get 1 with a scout.

I find that Oracle builds way too fast to start on it right after building library even without marble.

That's because you take the time to research worker techs, and improve your land. As I said, the fastest path I had was at size 3 in my capital. There, you need the time for Oracle, it becomes the main timing issue (and not the discovery of CoL)

I don't think it's really costing any time to research the worker techs because I'm getting to library faster than you are and since my terrain is improved I'm building it faster than you are too. Plus unless you don't plan on even building a worker until after you get Civil Service you're going to have to research a worker tech or two as well in between there somewhere.

Stonehenge is not the best of wonders in this path: you have the research power to go to Calender quickly. Plus, why do you wait? Is it for the risk of getting something else than a great scientist? I can udnerstand that

I've only been building Stonehenge because it's cheap and to guarantee that my 2nd city will expand in time for me to gain use of it's special resources without me having to place it right next to the resource. I think I'll probably switch to Parthenon and ignore Stonehenge next time though because I noticed that this new path I've been taking results in my first religion being founded in my 2nd city so I can get my city expansion from that. And yes I wait so I can guarantee that the first GP I get is a scientist. That is an absolute must.