Technology beelining

[DrSpike]

I haven't tested this properly yet, but my prior is it could prove problematic more often than useful.

I'm convinced you can research faster early on this way, and indeed myself go for civil service very early for bureaucracy, but surely you risk restricting the land you will have available to yourself by waiting so long to expand. As you say, you can take the land, but with no iron or copper (you wont have that much land under your control, so having either isn't a given) then that leaves you.......archers. Against at least archers probably defending with a 115% bonus.

[khumak]

The larger problem I see with it is that it intensifies the problem I already have the most trouble with. Barbarians. Nearly every game I play there's zero copper to be had closer than 20-30 movement turns away from my first city and frequently there's none even on the same continent I start on. So within a few turns after I discover Iron Working I'm already being attacked by barbarian axemen when I have nothing but warriors or maybe archers to fend them off with. Needless to say that doesn't work very well. Plus Archery is a dead end tech so I rarely bother researching it. I usually count on trading for it later.

[DrSpike]

Well, in your capital you need at most 2 warriors to hold off the barbs. By the times humans (that will enter the city radius) appear your culture will afford a bonus, which with the fortification bonus means your warrior will beat the archer most of the time. I haven't seen a stack attack from barbs yet.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by khumak
Sounds like a VERY different start from most games. I'm definitely going to try this. I imagine a focus like this would wind up building a very small number of cities early on and getting the rest through conquest. Also sounds like this would be an ideal way to go for OCC.

OCC can be based on religions just as much as it can be about production. Which is a very different game

You automatically get a smaller number of cities: by the time the Oracle completes you will have 2 at most. However, you also have a very high chance of founding 2 religions, and a sure option for a 3rd if you feel like it. However, consider how fast you can catch up: going for a lib+oracle, plus the 2 scientists will mean at most 2 less settlers than a more traditional start (unless heavy chopping is involved). After bureaucracy, settlers typically built in 6 turns or less...

Conquest is a valid option, and at some point you might want to consider it. The AI will have settled closer to your capital compared to not beelining for civil service. It's not a must, though: 3 religions means easy access to another one... cultural victory is relatively easy as your capital has enough culture from lib+oracle, and your second city founds at least 1 religion (possibly 2). Only one more city needed, and loads of cathedrals.

DeepO

[Krill]

Hey, It is more than possible to archer rush, if you try hard enough... against a prince AI, I have done it, though I have not tried it against a monarch AI.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by DrSpike
I haven't tested this properly yet, but my prior is it could prove problematic more often than useful.

I'm convinced you can research faster early on this way, and indeed myself go for civil service very early for bureaucracy, but surely you risk restricting the land you will have available to yourself by waiting so long to expand. As you say, you can take the land, but with no iron or copper (you wont have that much land under your control, so having either isn't a given) then that leaves you.......archers. Against at least archers probably defending with a 115% bonus.

Well, it all depend on situation. Research is not a bit faster, it's huge. After an academy, a 12 bpt city (10 cpt, 100% tech, lib) goes to 28 bpt (10 cpt +6 bpt from specialists, lib + academy = +12). Second and third cities only catch 1 or 2 bpt. Bureacracy increases research to 36bpt if you are still willing to keep 2 scientists.

This advantage can easily be turned towards any other tech too: go for alphabet in an instance, or go for compass and colossus, go military... if you're not playing too highly, you can easily fit in another tech before completing the Oracle (that's in reality the timer you've got to keep an eye on: this strategy absolutely relies on you building it). You don't need to be resourceless.

You won't have a lot of units, though, as you are building a lib and oracle, plus have 2 citizens as specialists for at least 25 turns. Early rushing is out, and choking AIs isn't easy either. But you can have a 2nd city, which only does units: it won't need a worker soon, as your capital should be improved about now, and not growing: your worker can improve your second city without delay, and go back to your capital once you get more techs (the wheel, for instance)

DeepO

[Arrian]

I've been fiddling around with Aeson's civil service beeline... it works great

Yeah, I've found it to be a nice "builder" beeline. I have *not* bothered with trying for an early religion (I've been using civs that do not start with mysticism, like China and... France, I think).

I do not recall whether or not I built the Great Library before the Oracle, though. Hmm. I think I may have done it the other way 'round. In both games I've used this beeline, I had marble to speed the GL.

-Arrian

[khumak]

Originally posted by Arrian


Yeah, I've found it to be a nice "builder" beeline. I have *not* bothered with trying for an early religion (I've been using civs that do not start with mysticism, like China and... France, I think).

You can usually grab Judaism first even without Mysticism if you want it but not either of the first 2.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, I've found it to be a nice "builder" beeline. I have *not* bothered with trying for an early religion (I've been using civs that do not start with mysticism, like China and... France, I think).

even without mysticism, it's not such a big gamble to try to take Hinduism. The important thing for this is making sure you gain all the commerce you can. River starts: yummie!

I do not recall whether or not I built the Great Library before the Oracle, though. Hmm. I think I may have done it the other way 'round. In both games I've used this beeline, I had marble to speed the GL.

That's a variation I haven't tried yet... GLib before Oracle? Is that efficient? literature comes after alphabet, and both aren't needed for civil service.

As a builder, literature after civil service is most definately an option. Even more research

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
Yeah, I've found it to be a nice "builder" beeline. I have *not* bothered with trying for an early religion (I've been using civs that do not start with mysticism, like China and... France, I think).

Huh... I've done one recently with Napoleon... if you can keep others happy while you completely ignore military units early on, you would be surprised by how fast you can reach gunpowder and military tradition. (ignoring stuff like the wheel and so on . This because the GS you can easily generate give techs on the beeline towards gunpowder: before a second city is commercially an interesting place to build another academy. This at the cost of shrines, though... and you will have multiple religions if going for it.

There is a fine break off point, where you are going to conquer so fast that your empire is about to go broke, but keeping peaceful as an agressive leader and coming out with one might blow is definately possible!

DeepO

[khumak]

The civil service beeline does work surprisingly well but from what I've noticed this is only true if your first city starts off in a very good spot where it can quickly grow. I've been trying to tweak my research and build orders to where I still have time to build a couple of warriors, 1 worker, and a settler before the library so my expansion doesn't totally grind to a halt. If I wind up in a spot with no special resources useable before calendar and mostly plains or hills then this strategy doesn't work very well at all.

[petey]

In my current game, I'm going for a cultural win, so after the early worker techs and Iron Working, I made a beeline to Music for the free Artist.

I was then able to backtrade for 4 earlier techs for one of the more advanced ones I had. Also, I was ahead of the AI for a couple of wonders, too.

[Dog of Justice]

Originally posted by DeepO
I've been fiddling around with Aeson's civil service beeline... it works great, but I don't know exactly in which situations other starts might be better. So just a description, to test it out yourself.

Do you have a link to Aeson's original discussion of this beeline? I can't find the post.

[Arrian]

In my most recent game (last night) I went with Ghandi on prince level, standard settings across the board and sought to nail the "holy grail" as I see if of the Civil Service beeline:

Pull off CS w/Oracle *and* build the Pyramids, thus meaning I can use representation + bureacracy + caste system, really early. Oh, and also expand fairly well and defend myself.

I had a nice river start (corn off the river, two ivories ON the river, lots of grassland, forest and maybe 3 hills). My first 3 cities were on that river and each had nice things to work with. City #2 had horses and STONE. City #3 had a lot of food, and City #4 was SUPPOSED to grab marble. I got beat to that spot, though. City #4 ended up being a coastal city w/clams and fish... and has become a commerce powerhouse (WEAK production, though).

So I thought "this is a great setup for my goals."

So, naturally, I challenged the six fingered man to a duel. I fail. Six fingered man leave me alive.

I built the Pyramids. I got beat to the Oracle, however, by ~8 turns. At the time, I was 8 turns from Code of Laws too, so any faster on the Oracle and I'd have not gotten Civil Service anyway (and I was using an extra scientist specialist already to boost research - I had built a library in my capital).

The reasons for failure:

First, my research rate wasn't as good as when I'd tried this playing as China (FIN/IND), for obvious reasons.

Second, I didn't beeline enough. I went out of my way to grab a few other things instead of going straight at what I was after. The main thing: I went for Alphabet in the hopes that I could trade for several other things (including Priesthood - no, silly, the AI will not trade you a tech so you can beat them to a wonder!). I was able to make some trades, but ultimately this was a mistake. Alpha is indeed important, but I should have waited and dealt with other things first. I also went and got BW so I could chop (only used 1 chop, though).

In the end, it was ok. I still had the Pyramids (representation), I got CoL, founded Confucism and utilized Caste System. I built the Great Library. I got to philo for Pacifism pretty quickly. CS came a tad later... I felt the need to backfill. Despite some pressure, I managed to found 7 cities and capture an 8th from the barbs. One of those is, even in the high middle ages, under heavy border pressure, though (no great artists yet! Somebody beat me to Music). In fact, b/c of the border problem, that city has nothing going for it but 3 grassland tiles w/cottages on them. The gold hill I was trying to grab is still 51% chinese (come on, little city, you can do it!!). I also flipped one city for a total of 9 before I'd fired a shot.

I am now pulling away nicely, in part because I stomped one of my neighbors with War Elephants (and catapults, of course). I also, for the first time, got a friendly AI to give me a gift (Horseback Riding). Nice. Of course, when he asked for one, I turned him down (I asked for one worth 357 beakers, he asked for something worth over 1000).

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Dog of Justice


Do you have a link to Aeson's original discussion of this beeline? I can't find the post.

Vel's strategy thread, page 11 (on my settings, anyway):

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142027&perpage=30&pagenumber=11

-Arrian