Vel's Strategy Thread

[Cort Haus]

I think that a resource-rich start location is tragically wasted without a worker first. Improving these tiles and maybe boosting growth with a granary can give very rapid worker/settler output, as the +5 foods get added to the +4 hammers - and it feels like a good ol' Civ 3 settler pump.

EXP Civs can get a Granary in one turn - with a single chop. This can turbo-charge a city and shows how early infrastructural research & development (building up) is a very viable alternative to grabbing early religions.

[Arrian]

Then throw in the Oracle. Probably after the first Settler (or if you have a strategic resource, units to go conquer a city) to time things right, but not always. A big city is generally more likely to be able to build a given Wonder than a small city. This can matter, it doesn't always apply though. With the Library+Scientist(s) research, you can steam through Code of Laws pretty fast. Confucianism and Caste System is a nice pickup, but the real trophy is Civil Service for Bureaucracy by completing the Oracle.

Hrm. I was playing as the Inca last night, and since they're financial and I got a floodplains start, I decided I would play around with cottages early on for the research boost. Prince level, standard map size.

I also had stone, so I built the pyramids (in a size2 city, with one chop, heh). I also built the Oracle. And a few other things Anyway, am I correct in assuming that, with a few minor detours, the plan you laid out requires a beeline at the expense of most other things? Hmm, wouldn't need an early religion, 'cause you'd get Confucism with that beeline, huh?

Having the Pyramids for Representation *and* Bureaucracy *and* Caste System... oh my.

The problem I ran into in my Incan game was that since I focused on research and wonderbuilding early, I only got 6 cities up. 2 are monsters with LOADS of floodplains, but the rest are merely so-so.

I suppose with a smallish empire I coulda dropped the Hanging Gardens The Great Library, though, was a good build in my second floodplains city. I had my capitol build a bunch of fp cottages, but the other city went with farms so it could work a bunch of mined hills and still have a specialist or two (in addition to the two free scientists from the GL).

Hmm. Perhaps I ought to run through it again tonight and try your beeline. If it's doable on a high level, surely I can pull it off on Prince.

-Arrian

[binTravkin]

EXP Civs can get a Granary in one turn - with a single chop. This can turbo-charge a city and shows how early infrastructural research & development (building up) is a very viable alternative to grabbing early religions.

That's why I think Cyrus is very powerful, only his starting techs limit him a bit - a longer way to granaries.
He can build many big cities (expansive + organised).

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by binTravkin

That's why I think Cyrus is very powerful, only his starting techs limit him a bit - a longer way to granaries.
He can build many big cities (expansive + organised).

Cyrus is Creative and Expansive. I had to culture bomb my weak, jungle / coast border city just to hang on to my resources and boost my defenses there.

Caesar is EXP + ORG, and I enjoy this combo. Cities can get bigger and richer faster, especially coastal cities.

[binTravkin]

Huh, they've messed Caesar with Cyrus at CFC then..

[Cort Haus]

CF who?

[binTravkin]

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Jcg316
It can be quite easy to miss out on an early religion if you go for it on high enough difficulties, but if you do so the different tech costs are certainly an issue that develops significantly.

On Emperor and above, if you go for an early Religion and an early Worker, your Worker might be ready before it has anything to do. Looking at this from a Food/Hammers perspective, that idle working would be costing you.

So, in case it's not clear, what I'm saying is that there is an interesting interplay between grabbing a Religion early on and improving the land. More power to you if you can push both agendas simultaneously.

[gentle]

@ v3nom

hey^^
did a quick testgame with louis and pyramids+library and it was awesome..
i even managed to get ahead of the comps concerning techs

still focusing on / empathizing culture but it still works as usual..just pushing them away and claiming the land ^^

i only did one quick game but had some problems coordinating my start. not having mining feels unusual and i missed hunting a lot. having to research hunting for ~7 turns really gave me a headache during that time concerning babas.
anyway, once defense was set up industrious really kicked in. got pyramids without problem but didnt get hanging gardens though i guess one doesnt need it that much. once my theatres and aquaducts were ready health/unrest was no problem anymore.

edit:
Miss Abyss really looks scary

[Dactyl]

Let me say here too that I tried a test game on Prince level. I went for the Pyramid and built a library in my capital. When it hit the health and happiness soft cap, I converted two citizens to scientists. Whoa, mama, it did wonders for my research. It would appear that, on the higher levels, micromanagement of the specialists in your cities can have a dramatic effect.

I might also note that, once you're trading techs, it often pays to research those that take the longest because, at least on Prince and below, the AI doesn't seem to go for them first and you can usually trade them. In fact, that's another thing to recommend the strategy of going for the Oracle and using it to get metal casting. Not only do you get the forge, but the AI will trade you other, though lesser, techs for metal casting since you will have it before them.

[gentle]

*censored*

[Jcg316]

A confucian, caste system start can be blazing fast to for teching. I think I mentioned it off-hand before. It certainly is very viable.

If I have any health bonus from the granary I'll be getting it early enough. The difference in time, if I am stopped behind a soft cap or on avoid growth, can be nearly meaningless, not to say that it would be in other situations besides this one. If I don't have grains I don't see much advantage of the granary instead of some other building, as if I don't get a granary I am producing something else.

A library before other things is going to be a difference in time. Yes you can gain those GPP points towards a scientists and that can be valuable. You do, however, have no better shot at the oracle than other non-AI players. If you don't have marble and another civ does you don't have too much of a chance at it. That aforementioned difference in time isn't necessarily long enough to make the other way slower in that respect, if you have a worker go with the second city and build cottages there. You may or may not want to use a scientist specialist depending on different situations. An academy sooner is certainly good but still can be a small amount of beakers. If you aren't endangered from some other facet a different player would be that beaker difference behind you for the rest of the game absolutely a solid benefit.

A city in good hammer terrain can certainly pump out wonders and not be missing out on the food if you are at a soft cap (happiness is almost always essentialy a hard cap but technically still soft). You wouldn't necessarily have that terrain, though if you do that certainly could be very effective.

Getting a granary with a chop requires extra techs, without mining as a starting tech it could take quite a while to where you may have been better served to get a second city on upgraded land. If you start with mining that is not hard enough to deter you from it if you want to use that method.

As two or more academies sooner may be more effective, not to mention a second library sooner than the other way, you wouldn't be at a significant disadvantage. Though if the terrain is poor than it may not be worth it.

Building production, in the early game, isn't about choices where one thing is chosen instead of something else. It is about choices of what is built sooner. Not like one way I'm not getting a library it'll just happen even as little as 10-15 turns later. Which depending on what the map allows may be a serious impact or may not. If you want caste system, representation, you aren't going to be far behind in science no matter what you do. If you want to found Conf than you'll have to be first and those beakers become much more of an impact.

The order mentioned earlier had a really early library, that will certainly not put you in good position for the Oracle though it can certainly give you the leg up for conf or tao.

A granary combined with Hereditary rule and developing your power rating while outgrowing other civs can certainly work in SP, or in MP except for the power rating increase.

That is quite true about maintenance costs as well, though a second city alone is not always signiificant as far as costs.

Groggy as can be, so this is all disorganized and flustered, but yeah the whole spectrum is viable just not necessarily any more so than other ways. Which would be a remarkable job of balance in CIV's design if so, or close.

[Jcg316]

I might also note that, once you're trading techs, it often pays to research those that take the longest because, at least on Prince and below, the AI doesn't seem to go for them first and you can usually trade them.

There is something in the games docs or civilopedia that said that going after later techs without many earlier ones is costly or something like that. I don't know if there is an actual mechanic involved or anything that actually has an effect but I suppose it is possible. Otherwise that can work well. they also seem to ignore writing, alphabet early if you look at how long it takes them to be able to trade techs with you while you go after metal casting/iron working parts of the tech tree.

[dschur]

Originally posted by Jcg316


There is something in the games docs or civilopedia that said that going after later techs without many earlier ones is costly or something like that. I don't know if there is an actual mechanic involved or anything that actually has an effect but I suppose it is possible. Otherwise that can work well. they also seem to ignore writing, alphabet early if you look at how long it takes them to be able to trade techs with you while you go after metal casting/iron working parts of the tech tree.

Going Long in a tech tree helped me a lot in my last game. I gave up on the early religions, got bronze for chopping, and agriculture to improve, and then went straight for Writing. While I waited for my Oracle to complete (accelerated by chopping) I researched a couple of missing techs (embarrasingly The Wheel which I forgot, and couldn't use my copper as a result). Oracle got me to Code of Law and Confucionism.

I think I managed to quickly trade for all the missing techs just by shopping Code of Law around. AI seems to put a BIG premium on the depth of the tech in the tree.

[khumak]

One thing I noticed that requires a drastic change in strategy for me is whether or not I decide to use "raging barbarians". I tried an OCC game recently with them turned on and watched as wave after wave of barbarian axemen descended on my city while I was stuck with archers for defense because my iron and copper was 1 square outside of my cultural borders.

Trying to improve any of my terrain was fruitless because archers just flat out can't stand up to axemen except inside a castle so my entire city was surrounded by forrest and I just had 8 archers turtled up inside my city to fend of the barbs.

Conclusion? Raging Barbarians is just nuts...