Vel's Strategy Thread

[InThane]

I hope you'll forgive me for pimping another thread within here, but I did an analysis of a specific starting location in this thread. The starting location was Rome's earth map starting location. Rome has two seaborne resources, a fish and a clam, within its initial starting borders. While not an everyday start, I'm thinking that any time you have a seaborne resource or two right next to your starting location, it is worth the effort to crank out a workboat before you start on any settlers. Would be interested to hear what you all think about this.

[Velociryx]

Your First Line of Defense - The Humble Worker

Okay, so by now, we've all seen that the AI is ruthless when it comes to pillage tactics. In fact, I think it's safe to say that the AI is a Pillage Junkie.

Fair enough.

So let's use that against them.

Even in civs with only nominal cultural development, odds are good that you can, with only nominal effort on your part, you can create a cultural "border buffer" with any civ you're adjacent to, that will extend beyond the reach of the "fat cross" of tiles able to be WORKED by the border city in question.

I tend to post a few soldiers on the overlooks into said neighbor's terrain, and more recently (as of this last game, in fact), took to putting terrain improvements in every tile at the border...even those that were well beyond the city's "workable tile" sphere of influence.

Net effect: If/When an invasion occurs, you gain several turns time to respond, as the enemy army can't resist the urge to stop and pillage along the way.

Sure, you're giving him a smidgeon of gold, but the gains he can make with it are MORE than offset by the fact that you instantly gain control of WHERE the battleground will be, and you ensure that said battleground is NOT at your city gates.

Such tiles, of course, should NEVER be given priority over *workable* tiles for a city (that is, after all, the point). But there is a notable gap between the time when your worker crews have done the greater bulk of terrain improving that they CAN do, and mid-late game improvements, and at such times, a good use for them would be to set up a "pillage zone" specifically designed to lure enemy forces to distraction (not to mention, you'll get at least a measure of that money in *your* pocket when you hit back, capturing one of their cities....

Anyway, I thought it worth mentioning, because I always enjoy finding ways of turning behavior that is often regarded as a strength, into a weakness.

-=Vel=-

[binTravkin]

I hope it will be fixed in some patch..

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by V3nom
chopping does indeed boost the hammers you get to produce a wonder when industrial. Having stone/marble (assuming the wonder uses them) also does.

It doesn't JUST FOR industrial, it worked for me as Friedrich last night

[Dactyl]

I've played a couple of games on Monarch level as the Indians under Gandhi using he following strategy: 1. Build a settler first, followed by a worker. In the second city build a worker first. After that build Stonehenge and the Oracle in the captial city, chopping a couple of squares if you have a lot of forest squares. Produce warriors in the second city.
2. Flexible research, but grab Priesthood for the Oracle and Metal Casting to snag after building the Oracle.

This works pretty well on Prince level, but on Monarch it tends to bog down. Taking the time to build both of those wonders means I can't build a third settler for a comparatively long time and I'm lucky if I can find decent space for a fourth city by the time I get around to it. Also, even with that second city popping out warriors, it can't do it fast enough to totally protect me from the raging barbarians. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that this isn't really a viable strategy when playing at higher difficulty levels because you really need to get those third and fourth settlers out relatively soon. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Arrian]

Vel,

Interesting exploitation of the AI's pillage tactics. I personally have *not* found that it's easy to get my border city's culture wide enough to encompass more than the "fat cross" on a consistent basis. Gimme a great artist and sure. Especially if my neighbor is creative.

Maybe I'm building up against the AI's culture a little bit deliberately, or I've run into more than my share of creative neighbors... I dunno. But typically the border culture war has been a draw for me.

-Arrian

[Verrucosus]

The Rome thread is really interesting. Many of the arguments that have come up here are applied to a specific starting position although that makes it a bit more difficult to draw general conclusions that can help in other games.

On the other hand, many statements here had to be qualified by the caveat that "a lot depends on the circumstances". That is quite true and the fact that it is so difficult to come up with any kind of generic advice even for the very first moves is a sign that we are dealing with an excellent game here.

The simple warrior/worker/settler choice that has been the backbone of this thread's discussions is affected by lots of factors, but most frequently mentioned were these:
- starting position on the map
- traits and starting techs
- availability of special resources
- intended research path (not necessarily determined by starting techs)
- game settings (difficulty level, map type and size, barbarians)

It's my impression that general geography has the strongest influence (even more than civ traits & starting techs), so maybe a typology of opening terrain would be the most useful basis of developing a typical opening strategies that would, of course be subject to adjustments on account of the other factors. Still, even that is perhaps too broad a statement.

Anyway, what would a list of common terrain configurations look like? As much as I enjoy discussing the very first moves, I can't keep myself from continuing a game once I have started it, so I have not seen that many starts yet.

I like dschur's comparison with Chess, by the way. The early turns can be much more specifically analysed than the middle game because the middle game situation will differ dramatically from game to game. There is a difference in that the Chess endgame is again subject to more exact analysis, but the two games are very similar with respect to the changing nature of analytical discussion that is quite different for the games' various segments. (I mean, look at Vel's SMAC guide - it starts as an arithmetics reader and ends as a philosophy textbook.)

I'm not quite sure yet what to think of the AI's pillaging. It's almost as if they know they'll be beaten back (in which case it is certainly a good move). On that note, what do you do when you are the conqueror? The gold from pillaging is tempting, but on the other hand, it takes a long time to rebuild the suburbs if you plan to stay.

[Alexfrog]

I think that, as you found, that strategy wont work for higher difficulties.

I wouldnt try getting both stonehenge and the oracle that early. I'd get your third city earlier.


In my most recent game, I was chinese (industrious/financial) on a lakes map, on Monarch difficulty (normal speed).

I founded on a plains hill, made worker then settler, researched bronze working first, chopped forests for the settler. I then researched to animal husbandry and pottery, while chopping another settler. I had revealed some nearby copper, so I built a city near that, and another one near an animal resource (had 2 animals now). I produced a worker and several warriors to defend my cities, and a library and granary in my home. Workers did a combination of making pastures and cottages, roads to resources, mine for the copper, and some chops.

For tech I now went for alphabet to be able to trade, then literature

Now, I had my capital make a wonder, my 2nd city make a barracks and pump axemen, and my 3rd made worker 3 and caught up on buildings.

I got together 4-5 axemen and attacked india, my nearest neighbor (very near!). I took their two small cities, but couldnt take their capitol as it had good defense. I researched to catapults, built some and took their capitol. They had a couple other cities farther away, which I left. Now I had 6 cities. Also, I now had 3 religious holy cities, since India had gotten all 3 early religions. This was far better than going for religions myself.

I build peacefully for a while, and kept my military strng enough that I wasnt attacked. I build many wonders, utilizing industious and chopping. I clearcut my entire land area of forests, AND I NEVER CARED. The only reason I wished I had more forests was to cut them. I had food bonuses from cows, pigs, wheat, rice, sheep, crabs, as well as having most cities on fresh water, and having granary and aqueduct where needed. My health was above my happiness in most cases, even with a clear cut.

I never cared about the production loss. Becuase its not really a loss, you replace the forest squares with a combination of grassland/farm or cottage and hills/mine.

My next war came against the romans, much later. they finally attacked with knights when I was defending with riflemen. I fought them off easily. I then reached modern armor when the highest AI had riflemen. Very fun.

I clearly need to go to emperor or something. This strategy was very strong.

Originally posted by Dactyl
I've played a couple of games on Monarch level as the Indians under Gandhi using he following strategy: 1. Build a settler first, followed by a worker. In the second city build a worker first. After that build Stonehenge and the Oracle in the captial city, chopping a couple of squares if you have a lot of forest squares. Produce warriors in the second city.
2. Flexible research, but grab Priesthood for the Oracle and Metal Casting to snag after building the Oracle.

This works pretty well on Prince level, but on Monarch it tends to bog down. Taking the time to build both of those wonders means I can't build a third settler for a comparatively long time and I'm lucky if I can find decent space for a fourth city by the time I get around to it. Also, even with that second city popping out warriors, it can't do it fast enough to totally protect me from the raging barbarians. I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that this isn't really a viable strategy when playing at higher difficulty levels because you really need to get those third and fourth settlers out relatively soon. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Alexfrog]

Yes! this is very strong.

I did this in my last game, and the Romans invaded with tons of knights and stuff. I had riflemen. (Monarch difficulty).

They spent a couple turns pillaging the squares against their border that I wasnt using. This essentially meant that I got to defend and killoff their guys before they made it to the towns I had built up.

The worst part about war (in your territory) is that the AIs pillage like crazy and it wrecks your economy. This strategy gives you some time to get them out of there before you start losing stuff you actually care about.

Originally posted by Velociryx
Your First Line of Defense - The Humble Worker

Okay, so by now, we've all seen that the AI is ruthless when it comes to pillage tactics. In fact, I think it's safe to say that the AI is a Pillage Junkie.

Fair enough.

So let's use that against them.

Even in civs with only nominal cultural development, odds are good that you can, with only nominal effort on your part, you can create a cultural "border buffer" with any civ you're adjacent to, that will extend beyond the reach of the "fat cross" of tiles able to be WORKED by the border city in question.

I tend to post a few soldiers on the overlooks into said neighbor's terrain, and more recently (as of this last game, in fact), took to putting terrain improvements in every tile at the border...even those that were well beyond the city's "workable tile" sphere of influence.

Net effect: If/When an invasion occurs, you gain several turns time to respond, as the enemy army can't resist the urge to stop and pillage along the way.

Sure, you're giving him a smidgeon of gold, but the gains he can make with it are MORE than offset by the fact that you instantly gain control of WHERE the battleground will be, and you ensure that said battleground is NOT at your city gates.

Such tiles, of course, should NEVER be given priority over *workable* tiles for a city (that is, after all, the point). But there is a notable gap between the time when your worker crews have done the greater bulk of terrain improving that they CAN do, and mid-late game improvements, and at such times, a good use for them would be to set up a "pillage zone" specifically designed to lure enemy forces to distraction (not to mention, you'll get at least a measure of that money in *your* pocket when you hit back, capturing one of their cities....

Anyway, I thought it worth mentioning, because I always enjoy finding ways of turning behavior that is often regarded as a strength, into a weakness.

-=Vel=-

[yin26]

The issue of AI pillaging is an interesting one, and I'd wager that the AI behavior as-is will likely prove more useful more of the time than beelining for a city. Consider that cities provide your units massive defense bonuses. Also consider that if you attack his units out in the open, you've not only lost that defensive bonus, but now *you* give the AI defensive bonses by virture of being the attacker. Sometimes, too, you don't have the right counter ready (think stealth bombers when you have no AA), so it's possible the AI can literally bring you economy to nothing in a matter of turns by pillaging.

Then, of course, having to vacate your cities (to whatever degree) in order to get at the AI out in the open leaves those cities vulnerable to attacks from another direction or from the AI stack itself if it does well against your attacks.

Of course, it would be ideal for the AI to beeline to a city when it "knows" it has sufficient force to take it without massive losses. No doubt there. And the idea of a pillage zone is a good one as long as you have the units ready to turn that to your advantage. But if the AI is working in the dark, so to speak, with no cheats as to knowing what the precise composition of your army is, then I think pillaging as it stands now is generally the perfect thing for the AI to be doing.

[Alexfrog]

My current take on the start with settler/worker/warrior thread:

The worker first is helpful only if it gets to chop out your settler. If not, then settler first.

If you are going for an early religion: settler first. Your worker wont be able to do much when built. However, I think that each religion is less beneficial than the previous, and pretty much, you only really need 1. The more you have, the harder it is to get the one you want as your state religion to all your cities. And the main benefit of an early religion, imo, is to have a state religion, organized religion, and get the shrine.

So I'd go for one religion, and then get worker techs.


If you start with mining, and are in an area which contains forests, and is not packed with flood plains: research bronze working, worker first, then chop out a settler. Then chop out a second settler and make a worker.
Then immediately get some warriors. Also, your initial warrior should do a loop and return home to defend your settlers that go out.

If the area is packed with flood plains, then its much less clear, but I think either settler first, or warrior to grow your city, then settlers.


I do believe that the STRONGEST start however, is the one where you get bronze working and worker and chop out a couple settlers. But you need certain civs to do it, and to not be going for a religion, and this makes me feel that those civs are better.

Of course, it may just be my strategic preference...I know how to make that start good, but I might not know how to make the slower expansion, get a religion start good.

The true judge of which strategy is better, is which one gives you the best chance on deity difficulty.

[ducki]

The Pillage Zone sounds a lot like it needs a patch.
Yes, it's good that the AI will now concentrate on pillaging your improvements, both to make money AND to cripple your economy.
No, it shouldn't be pillaging tiles that don't actually hurt you. If it's a resource like stone or marble or if it's trying to isolate you from a traderoute, sure, knock it out, but non-workable farms/windmills? Needs a tiny patch assigning extra "pillage value" to workable and resource tiles, or a "pillage value" reduction to the nonworkables.

Nice find, though!

[duodecimal]

Do not trust the AI to pillage first and go for your cities second.

Genghis went for my capital, defended by two archers, two spearmen, and an axeman, all behind a wall. He sent two stacks - two keshyks in both, and a pair of archers and a pair of axemen in the other two. He wanted my capital and he took it. He also simultaneously landed two chariots on the opposite side of my empire via galley.

He pillaged a couple of tiles between my border and the capital, but the objective was clearly the city. Beefing up defenses didn't dissuade him.

[vmxa1]

I am also coming the same conclusion as Alexfrog on forest. I just do not see lumbermills as nearly important as the early chop.

Those early hammers Vs 1 more hammer quite late in the game. If the chop is used for things like a settler or a key early wonder, I think it is a good payoff.

[Alexfrog]

Originally posted by duodecimal
Do not trust the AI to pillage first and go for your cities second.

Genghis went for my capital, defended by two archers, two spearmen, and an axeman, all behind a wall. He sent two stacks - two keshyks in both, and a pair of archers and a pair of axemen in the other two. He wanted my capital and he took it. He also simultaneously landed two chariots on the opposite side of my empire via galley.

He pillaged a couple of tiles between my border and the capital, but the objective was clearly the city. Beefing up defenses didn't dissuade him.

I think this is determined by wether you have good enough defenses in your city.

If you can defend the city, he will pillage, in which case, its good to have improvements that are outside your city range for them to pillag efirst, buying you a couple turns.