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**lord of the mark** · December 13, 2007, 17:21

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

To me it attributes the success of one home console over another home console, due to a handheld console. Which does not compute.

His logic follows perfectly.

1) The Japanese "gamer" demographic, which traditionally bought home consoles, is now buying more handheld consoles instead, possibly due to the DS itself.

2) The PS3 is marketed towards the gamer demographic.

3) The Wii is marketed towards demographics beyond the gamer demographic.

From those, it follows that the Wii will now be selling better than the PS3.

Of course it wouldnt explain the recent PS3 comeback.

It might explain, though, why the more gamer games for the Wii, like SMG, seem to be selling particularly poorly in Japan, IIUC.

**Asher** · December 13, 2007, 17:22

Originally posted by lord of the mark
If you simply say theyre seperate markets, with no influence on each other. Is it not possible that in some places, handhelds and home consoles are considered partial substitutes for each other?

That's possible but that doesn't mean how you phrased it was unambiguous and completely coherent. I clearly wasn't the only person confused by it.

I also don't happen to think what you're saying now makes any sense -- that the DS is for hardcore gamers?

The best selling Nintendo DS game is Nintendogs. The other top sellers are games such as Brain Age, Big Brain Academy, Brain Training, English Training, etc. To me this heavily implies the complete opposite of the "DS is for hardcore gamers", and it shows the DS is perhaps the epitome of casual gaming.

**Asher** · December 13, 2007, 17:24

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

To me it attributes the success of one home console over another home console, due to a handheld console. Which does not compute.

His logic follows perfectly.

1) The Japanese "gamer" demographic, which traditionally bought home consoles, is now buying more handheld consoles instead, possibly due to the DS itself.

The problem is just where the hell does this come from? Look at the top selling DS games -- they're not "gamers" games at all. So no, this does not follow.

2) The PS3 is marketed towards the gamer demographic.

3) The Wii is marketed towards demographics beyond the gamer demographic.

From those, it follows that the Wii will now be selling better than the PS3.

This doesn't follow because the first point is provably ridiculous. That's the point.

The other point was his sentence was worded poorly and was ambiguous.

The last point is it shows unequivocally this is false given the PS3's outselling of the Wii consistently after the PS3 was given a more reasonable price.

It's quite clear the reason for the PS3's poor sales everywhere is pricetag, not that the DS -- with its stable of "hardcore games" like Nintendogs -- is eating up the hardcore gaming market.

**Kuciwalker** · December 13, 2007, 17:27

His argument is perfectly rational - with no personal knowledge of the Japanese market (which you don't have either), he posited something plausible that he'd heard. It's not his fault your reading comprehension failed to see the obvious logical connections.

Your problem earlier wasn't with the premise (which I don't care about either way), it was with the fact that you couldn't dissect his argument in the first place.

**Asher** · December 13, 2007, 17:32

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
His argument is perfectly rational - with no personal knowledge of the Japanese market (which you don't have either), he posited something plausible that he'd heard. It's not his fault your reading comprehension failed to see the obvious logical connections.

Your problem earlier wasn't with the premise (which I don't care about either way), it was with the fact that you couldn't dissect his argument in the first place.

The problem was he didn't present the argument clearly. Of the two people who responded before he clarified, no one understood it "properly". There were multiple interpretations for the comment -- neither of which actually make sense. You try to make the case that they do and they "follow", but the assumption in point 1 is provably false.

I've no idea why you're irrationally jumping to LOTM's "aid" in all sorts of threads but it's slightly disturbing to me.

**snoopy369** · December 13, 2007, 17:38

Asher, I think he's saying you shouldn't jump all over him just because you didn't understand his statement... and please don't use my lack of understanding, I have very little understanding of this genre and was just making a random guess

**Asher** · December 13, 2007, 17:41

Originally posted by snoopy369
Asher, I think he's saying you shouldn't jump all over him just because you didn't understand his statement... and please don't use my lack of understanding, I have very little understanding of this genre and was just making a random guess

The problem was grammatical and syntactical, nothing more. It was an ambiguous comment, which is why we're arguing about it still.

Kuci's attempt to pretend that there's only one possible way to interpret the vague comment is baffling to me.

**lord of the mark** · December 13, 2007, 17:41

Recent top selling SW in Japan: [

[WII] Wii Fit (Nintendo) - 150,000 / 411,000
02. [NDS] Mario Party DS (Nintendo) - 107,000 / 646,000
03. [NDS] Tales of Innocence (Bandai-Namco) - 104,000 / NEW
04. [PSP] Hot Shots Golf Portable 2 (Sony) - 87,000 / NEW
05. [NDS] Prof. Layton and Pandora's Box (Level 5) - 76,000 / 370,000
06. [NDS] Dragon Quest IV (Square-Enix) - 63,000 / 795,000
07. [360] Lost Odyssey (Microsoft) - 55,000 / NEW
08. [NDS] Powerful Pro-kun Pocket 10 (Konami) - 54,000 / NEW
09. [WII] Super Mario Galaxy (Nintendo) - 45,000 / 476,000
10. [WII] Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games (Nintendo) - 45,000 / 148,000

11. [PS2] SD Gundam G Generation Spirits (Bandai-Namco)
12. [PS2] World Soccer Winning Eleven 2008 (Konami)
13. [NDS] Gintama: Gintama Quest: Gin-san Changes Jobs to Save the World (Banpresto)
14. [WII] Wii Sports (Nintendo)
15. [WII] Wii Play (Nintendo)
16. [PS2] Sengoku Basara 2: Heroes (Capcom)
17. [PSP] Yuusha no Kuse ni Namaiki da (Sony)
18. [NDS] Nep League DS (Jaleco)
19. [PSP] Silent Hill Zero (Konami)
20. [WII] Mario Party 8 (Nintendo)
21. [PS3] World Soccer Winning Eleven 2008 (Konami)
22. [NDS] Pokémon Mysterious Dungeon: Time Expedition Party (Pokémon)
23. [NDS] Mario Kart DS (Nintendo)
24. [PS3] Uncharted: Drake's Fortune (Sony)
25. [NDS] MySims (EA)
26. [PS2] Yakuza 2 (Sega)
27. [NDS] New Super Mario Bros. (Nintendo)
28. [NDS] Pokémon Mysterious Dungeon: Shadow Expedition Party (Pokémon)
29. [PSP] Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories (Capcom)
30. [NDS] Haneru no Tobira DS: Short-Line Railroad Night

I really dont know what Tales of Innocence, Prof. Layton and Pandora's Box , Dragon Quest IV , or Powerful Pro-kun Pocket 10 are about, or how genuinely hard core they are or arent, I was taking someone elses word.

**Kuciwalker** · December 13, 2007, 17:41

Originally posted by Asher
I've no idea why you're irrationally jumping to LOTM's "aid" in all sorts of threads but it's slightly disturbing to me.

I like LOTM. I like you. I attack whichever one I think is being unreasonable.

**Asher** · December 13, 2007, 17:42

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I like LOTM. I like you. I attack whichever one I think is being unreasonable.

In this case, the unreasonable opinion is that LOTM's comment was specific and completely unambiguous.

**lord of the mark** · December 13, 2007, 17:43

Originally posted by Asher

The problem was grammatical and syntactical, nothing more. It was an ambiguous comment, which is why we're arguing about it still..

If I see an ambiguous comment, I usually either ask politely for clarification, or make a light hearted joke about it.

**snoopy369** · December 13, 2007, 17:44

There were many ways to interpret it, based on one's understanding of the genre. Sure, it could have been more specific. I don't think that's a reason to attack someone as thoroughly as you did, though ... unless you're upset that you didn't have the understanding to understand it yourself?

**Asher** · December 13, 2007, 17:46

Originally posted by lord of the mark

I really dont know what Tales of Innocence

Mainstream JRPG series. Wouldn't call it hardcore nor casual.

Prof. Layton and Pandora's Box

Casual mystery solving game.

Dragon Quest IV

Mainstream JRPG series.

Powerful Pro-kun Pocket 10

Casual cutesy baseball game

**Asher** · December 13, 2007, 17:47

Originally posted by snoopy369
There were many ways to interpret it, based on one's understanding of the genre. Sure, it could have been more specific. I don't think that's a reason to attack someone as thoroughly as you did, though ... unless you're upset that you didn't have the understanding to understand it yourself?

Attack LOTM thoroughly? Are you kidding me?

My comment was this:

Does this make zero sense to anyone else here?

Clearly indicating that it simply made zero sense to me. I was looking for if it made sense to anyone so they could explain it to me.

When did everyone go crazy?

**Asher** · December 13, 2007, 17:48

Originally posted by lord of the mark

If I see an ambiguous comment, I usually either ask politely for clarification, or make a light hearted joke about it.

If I offended you with this scathing remark:

Does this make zero sense to anyone else here?

then you need to take a break.

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