How many of you are free marketeers?

[Chaos Theory]

Depending on which techs you have, Green may not be an option. Planned will be an option.

The WP is very, very nice, and I sometimes would go for it over drone control, but I wouldn't use it just to plant trees faster - I'd spam condensors and boreholes across my continent. Boreholes aren't useful until Ecological Engineering, but condensors are useful immediately, and are perfect for crawlers.

Getting the HGP is like playing on a lower difficulty level, and permits wars under FM, enables GA pop-booming even with significant bureaucracy, and ensures that size 1 bases won't riot for anything less than pacifism. When suffering from 2 pacifism drones, a city with 1 worker will always be in riots, since even if he's a talent, the two pacifism drones will downgrade him to a drone. Having the HGP upgrades that drone back to a citizen.

The PTS is like an early pop boom, followed by a tremendous incentive for ICS. Though it's more expensive at 30 rows, it's extremely appealing.

The VW isn't that great for non-Uni factions, since net nodes are somewhat expensive.

The Command Nexus is nice to have, but isn't worth giving up another SP.

The Empath Guild is usually disabled in PBEMs, but is quite powerful if you can build it.

The Merchant Exchange doesn't help much until the era of Environmental Economics, so it's hard to justify building.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by cal_01

Speaking of which, here's something for both FM and Planned players: would you favor WP first over drone-controlling SPs (such as HGP and VW) as the first SP? I tend to go WP first so I can build forests everywhere and help my minerals production.

It depends on the faction. I almost always go for either the HGP or the WP first. If I'm playing one of the factions that can only pop boom with a GA then HGP is the priority, as it can be very difficult to GA without it. Otherwise the WP has a lot going for it, namely the forming discount and the ability to do just about any forming you like in the early game.

Btw, I'm a former Planned afficianado who has accepted the fact that in most cases Planned simply cannot keep up with FM in the early game. Later on it matters a lot less, particularly if you use specialists extensively. But that base tile energy in the early game gets you to crawlers so fast that your mineral production shoots up well past what you can get in Planned. Even playing the Uni on Transcend the drones just don't cause me nearly as much energy to deal with as the margin between what FM and Planned produce.

[cal_01]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Depending on which techs you have, Green may not be an option. Planned will be an option.

The WP is very, very nice, and I sometimes would go for it over drone control, but I wouldn't use it just to plant trees faster - I'd spam condensors and boreholes across my continent. Boreholes aren't useful until Ecological Engineering, but condensors are useful immediately, and are perfect for crawlers.

Getting the HGP is like playing on a lower difficulty level, and permits wars under FM, enables GA pop-booming even with significant bureaucracy, and ensures that size 1 bases won't riot for anything less than pacifism. When suffering from 2 pacifism drones, a city with 1 worker will always be in riots, since even if he's a talent, the two pacifism drones will downgrade him to a drone. Having the HGP upgrades that drone back to a citizen.

The PTS is like an early pop boom, followed by a tremendous incentive for ICS. Though it's more expensive at 30 rows, it's extremely appealing.

The VW isn't that great for non-Uni factions, since net nodes are somewhat expensive.

The Command Nexus is nice to have, but isn't worth giving up another SP.

The Empath Guild is usually disabled in PBEMs, but is quite powerful if you can build it.

The Merchant Exchange doesn't help much until the era of Environmental Economics, so it's hard to justify building.

Righto on the Borehole/Condensor spamming. However, it takes too many terraformers in multiple teams to spam Boreholes at a reasonable rate, so I typically just go Forest/Condensors if I feel the base needs condensors. However, I typically stick to forests because it's a balanced terraforming choice. And TF/HF make them even more delicious!

If I do build Boreholes though, it would be later in the game when I have my main facilities up and have spare terraformers. I usually pick an open field and dot it with Boreholes and crawlers.

As for CN, I do agree that it's pretty useless most of the time. However, if I'm going for an aggressive game (and I have the minerals/crawlers to do it), I typically snap it up. I remember overrunning two factions with Scout Patrols (I could've built something else, but these guys were cheap :P) using Miriam and it was pretty much overkill once I got the CN too.

[Tommar]

Originally posted by cal_01


I would point to Lazerus's post for certain points in reply to this post.

And, forming an army with probe teams, while certainly viable, is certainly less efficient than having a standing army in the first place. Furthermore, relying on probe teams isn't good in certain matchups (Miriam Fundie for example) nor are they completely dependable. At least with Planned, I can have 30+ Needlejets/Copters spread around multiple cities (whereas you need a city(s) with a PS and enough minerals to handle that many units and not hurt your overal labs rating) and any number of Conventional Missiles (in addition to Rovers etc) in my arsenal.

And in my Planned/Wealth (or Knowledge in some cases.. or maybe Green ), I usually have sufficient credits to sustain a builder playstyle. Having the pop-boom with Demo/Planned/Creche is definitely a nice advantage that I enjoy with builder, and the extra 10% minerals is great too. Plus, there's enough of a police rating for at least one 2xPolice unit.

Um, no. I'm talking about early game. By the time I reach tech level to have copters, it's all over for them. My infrastructure is pretty solidly built long before that.

In the early game, if you build an army rather than infrastructure, you're not playing builder style. They are mutually exclusive (in the early game).

Not that there's anything wrong with that. That's one of the nice things about SMAC. Building an army early is quite uber for an aggressive faction. But it's not the way to play a builder type faction. A builder, by definition, in my book, builds base facilities as a priority, not an army. The only way to defend under those circumstances is probe teams, and to buy factions like the Believers off to buy you time. (which is again why I say "Spend the money" If you don't have much, the extortionists don't ask for much, but will be bought off nevertheless.)

Early game vs. late game is around Superstring and at least 10 bases in my book. I won't move out until I have Hunter-Seeker, but I will start building an army once I have Superstring, if under attack.

BTW, have you beat Transcend mode in single player with your tactics? I have with Free Market/Wealth enough times that it's boring. (I switch to Green/Knowledge when I decide to move out.) I might try Planned for something different (I tried Civ3 recently and recoiled in horror. )

If you would point to Lazarus' post, do it. (i.e., provide a link, or better yet, quote.) I scrolled back a bit, but have no idea what you were referring to.

His last post to me seemed to take me to task for picking on him, even though it sounds like we agree.

Why'd you pick out what i said then ? I said planned/green were normally aggressive hence logic FM is for the laid back builder.

Which is exactly what I've been saying. We just seem to have been misunderstanding each other.

[binTravkin]

Funny to see such a hot debate on things which seem obvious to me..

[Tommar]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Funny to see such a hot debate on things which seem obvious to me..

Explain.

Yeah, I know you're a Free Marketeer like I am, but your post has no informational content.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

The informational content has been posted in link form in Vel's compendium and my primer.

Realistically the arguements to advance planned over FM depends greatly on proximity to nearest neighbor/threat. In a no threatening arrangement FM beats the pants off planned in the early game.

Early game = Pre restriction lifting

Reason is that it allows so much energy from the base squares (you need to ICs to take full advantage) that you power through the early tech at a rate that would take you decades longer in planned. The lack of populational power is a mere few turns as a Demo/planned/creche boom or Demo/creche/golden age boom later on.

Seriously the elder statesman of this board have long thought this through and proven it 19 ways to Sunday. Sorry not trying to be condescending here but it is almost a given, save the rarities wherein a player garners scads of AA to offset the technological gap a FM player otherwise would generate, that a properly run FM early game transitioning into a period of Planned for pop boom purposes and then an extended run of green (as mid to late game green outperforms FM in raw energy output and flexibility to slam it all to econ or labs).

But what would I know? I haven't played in about 9 months. Maybe I need to install it on my laptop for my next business trip.

[binTravkin]

Explain.

Obvious things don't need explanation..

But seriously as Ogie said:

Seriously the elder statesman of this board have long thought this through and proven it 19 ways to Sunday.

Im in a stage of knowledge of SMACX where the answers on questions like this are obvious to me.

And actually I've been in such a stage since I read all the info available at Vel's guide and SMAC Academy and tried it all out.

Advice is to do the same and not waste too much words in proving something that the expierence could later prove you as incorrect.


/me recalls nostalgically those ol' good times and flamey threads..

[cal_01]

Originally posted by Tommar


Um, no. I'm talking about early game. By the time I reach tech level to have copters, it's all over for them. My infrastructure is pretty solidly built long before that.

In the early game, if you build an army rather than infrastructure, you're not playing builder style. They are mutually exclusive (in the early game).

Not that there's anything wrong with that. That's one of the nice things about SMAC. Building an army early is quite uber for an aggressive faction. But it's not the way to play a builder type faction. A builder, by definition, in my book, builds base facilities as a priority, not an army. The only way to defend under those circumstances is probe teams, and to buy factions like the Believers off to buy you time. (which is again why I say "Spend the money" If you don't have much, the extortionists don't ask for much, but will be bought off nevertheless.)

Early game vs. late game is around Superstring and at least 10 bases in my book. I won't move out until I have Hunter-Seeker, but I will start building an army once I have Superstring, if under attack.

BTW, have you beat Transcend mode in single player with your tactics? I have with Free Market/Wealth enough times that it's boring. (I switch to Green/Knowledge when I decide to move out.) I might try Planned for something different (I tried Civ3 recently and recoiled in horror. )

If you would point to Lazarus' post, do it. (i.e., provide a link, or better yet, quote.) I scrolled back a bit, but have no idea what you were referring to.

His last post to me seemed to take me to task for picking on him, even though it sounds like we agree.



Which is exactly what I've been saying. We just seem to have been misunderstanding each other.

Sorry. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...37#post3905637 and the reference to the standing army.

Well, I guess I'm more of a half-builder than a full-out builder. To tell you the truth, I'm probably more of a hybrid player than anything else, but my strategies/play-style hover closer to builder. And I tend to move out once I get the Particle Impactor and Mobility.

And yeah, I've beaten transcend before, but the AI gets kind of twinky in that difficulty so I don't like playing in it too much. But then again, the AI tends to lag in tech no matter which faction it is so...

If I were to further summarize my playstyle it would be:

a) Build up facilities moderately (quasi-ICS, forests for early minerals, and get up to base limit... and one SP if possible, most of the time no), and check up on nearest factions.
b) Get to Particle Impactor/Mobility. Check the nearest factions and see if I can wage a war with my strongest neighbour.
c) If yes, build army and wipe out enemy. If not, wait until SFF and Missile Launchers (6).
d) Continue builder style, and get one or two critical SPs. (For some reason, the AI puts its SPs in the weirdest places so their production rate is so slow. )

[Lazerus]

quote:
Why'd you pick out what i said then ? I said planned/green were normally aggressive hence logic FM is for the laid back builder.


Which is exactly what I've been saying. We just seem to have been misunderstanding each other.

just your first reply using me as a quote seemed to imply that i'd said FM was for aggressive factions, so i clarified that planned/green was more to an aggressive factions style.

[Lazerus]

* binTravkin recalls nostalgically those ol' good times and flamey threads..

roads are useless now stfu noob

[Lazerus]

At least with Planned, I can have 30+ Needlejets/Copters spread around multiple cities (whereas you need a city(s) with a PS and enough minerals to handle that many units and not hurt your overal labs rating) and any number of Conventional Missiles (in addition to Rovers etc) in my arsenal.

The main downside is that while he's building them he isn't increasing economy or labs, a large ICS planned player can though. Also just 30 ? aim for 200, it makes diplomacy easier

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Lazerus


roads are useless now stfu noob

that one was most fun

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
But what would I know?

LOTs and lots and lots. I learned a lot from OO over the years. . .

Early FM rocks.

Exceptions have been mentioned and 1 I could add is situations where you will produce up to energy restrictions in almost all of your worked tiles anyway. Lets say your first 4 bases were going in the uranium flats or all worked tiles would be on forest anyway. . .. then the only benefit of FM is the greater base tile production ( I assume zero commerce at this stage) and I believe you would come out a little ahead by staying in planned for a while with growth, industry and better drone control. These situations are rare and as soon as you start working tiles that can't produce energy to restriction levels without FM, the preference again starts back toward FM.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Lazerus
roads are useless now stfu noob

OMG, I LOVED that guy! What was his name again?