NFL 2013 Season Thread

[Sava]

So Steve Young doesn't count? How convenient. (I would mention Elway and Favre too, but they were near the end of their careers and not so mobile anymore by the time they got into the Super Bowl.)

Too bad Carolina couldn't keep it going today (but not surprising). The Seattle-SF re-re-rematch next week should be epic.

Steve Young, and Elway earlier in his career, could run if needed. Favre just scrambled like a madman and hoped for the best. He never outran anybody.

None of those three are running QB's.

So yeah, not what I was talking about. But thanks for playing!

[Sava]

And LOL @ BK

The Chargers were the worst team in the playoffs.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Chargers were the worst team in the playoffs.

They came within 7 of Denver, while the Patriots did not. Ergo Chargers > Patriots > Cincinnati > Indy > Kansas City. And they beat Cincinnati too. In Cincy.

The Chargers never lost to KC or Indy all this year.

[snoopy369]

Sava, I don't know about how you define 'mobile QB', but Steve Young definitely was.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm

For his career he averaged 25 y/g rushing. During the peak of his career he had two years over 30 Y/G and only one season under 20. For comparative purposes, Wilson and Kaepernick were about 33/34 y/g. That sounds almost exactly the same - perhaps a bit less, but certainly in the same ballpark, and this is 10 years into his career (he had 46 Y/G his rookie season with TB).

[Sava]

Sava, I don't know about how you define 'mobile QB', but Steve Young definitely was.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm

It's about the game plan. Those Niners teams QBed by Young weren't built around the notion that he could win games with his legs. I recall the conference championship game against the Cowboys during the Niners SB year. They bootlegged Young a lot. But even then, the game plan was still based upon his arm, not his legs.

And my point stands. Young's Niners weren't winning games with his running as the gameplan. The same goes for Elway and Favre (which is absolutely hilarious, btw, that one would consider him a mobile QB . Did you ever watch a Packers game in the 90's? Maybe you needed a better TV. Favre a running QB? That's hilarious.

(he had 46 Y/G his rookie season with TB)

And he won the Super Bowl with TB that year?

OH RIGHTTTTTTTTTT

And Super Bowl XXIX? Where the Steve Young Niners won?

He threw 6 TD passes. He ran for zero.

He did run 5 times for 49 yards. Maybe one or two of those runs were designed plays. They didn't win because he ran for 49 yards.

And only an idiot would think as much.

[Sava]

This is unrelated. But I found it interesting that 8 Chargers players from that Super Bowl losing team have died.

eight players from the 1994 Chargers Super Bowl team have died prior to reaching age 45.[2]

They include:

David Griggs: Died in a Traffic Collision in 1995 at age 28
Rodney Culver: Died in the crash of ValuJet Flight 592 in 1996 at age 26.
Doug Miller: Killed by lightning strikes in 1998 at age 28
Chris Mims: Died of Heart Attack in 2008 at age 38
Curtis Whitley: Died from a Drug Overdose in 2008 at age 39
Lewis Bush: Died from Cardiac Arrest in 2011 at age 42
Shawn Lee: Died in 2011 from cardiac arrest at age 44
Junior Seau: Committed suicide with a firearm in 2012 at age 43.

[Al B. Sure!]

He needed to stay in the pocket and that's why they won. SF completely shut him down when he ran.

So SF devoted practice time and designed their defense to prevent Wilson from beating them with his legs... and you claim being mobile is useless?

By your logic, him being a mobile QB IS THE REASON the Seahawks won. If the DEF came into it with the idea of we need to put guys on spy and contain and scheme to stop Wilson running and he still beats them through the air, how the hell is that not a testament to the effectiveness of mobile QB's that they cause the DEF to change their gameplan and make themselves vulnerable in other ways?

They came within 7 of Denver, while the Patriots did not. Ergo Chargers > Patriots > Cincinnati > Indy > Kansas City.

Sports doesn't work like that. A beats B and B beats C doesn't mean that C won't beat A.

[Ben Kenobi]

He threw 6 TD passes. He ran for zero.

This. And this is the point. Young was a helluva QB. You need someone who can throw the damn ball to win a superbowl.

[Al B. Sure!]

Snoopy, I've posted my evidence of mobile QB's winning more games that non-mobile QB's on other forums, and Sava is echoing the same singular response I got:

-Mobile QB's have never won a Super Bowl.

-Steve Young? But it is true that Grogan, McNair, McNabb, and Kaepernick did all lose Super Bowls (though McNabb, McNair, and Kaepernick played in some of the closest SB's in history). Only 1 mobile SB winner probably is just because mobile QB's are so rare that you would expect the vast majority of SB winning QB's to be non-mobile.

-zomfg lol you think Steve Young was mobile? Do you even football? zomfg! lol


It's like arguing with Ben. You know you've won when your opponents make outlandishly retarded statements.


If Wilson wins this year, the response will be: Call me when a mobile QB without an elite RB and defense win a Super Bowl... as if elite teams don't ALWAYS win Super Bowls.

[Al B. Sure!]

This. And this is the point. Young was a helluva QB. You need someone who can throw the damn ball to win a superbowl.

Being mobile does not mean you can't also be a great passer. Why do you think they're mutually exclusive?

[Ben Kenobi]

So SF devoted practice time and designed their defense to prevent Wilson from beating them with his legs... and you claim being mobile is useless?

Yep, because Seattle basically ignored Kaep's runs, and they won. They focussed on shutting down SF's run game, and on forcing Kaep to throw. SF had the losing strategy. As I said before, the way to win is to let them run, drop them and watch while they throw in pain for the rest of the game. Or maybe you knock them out entirely. Kaep had 120 on the ground, which is almost entirely negated by the two picks. Plus, he was lucky not to give up another fumble on top of it. As soon as Seattle chose to leave Wilson in the pocket, they started winning because now that 'spy' is utterly useless.

By your logic, him being a mobile QB IS THE REASON the Seahawks won.

Nope. San Fran had the losing strategy.

If the DEF came into it with the idea of we need to put guys on spy and contain and scheme to stop Wilson running and he still beats them through the air, how the hell is that not a testament to the effectiveness of mobile QB's that they cause the DEF to change their gameplan and make themselves vulnerable in other ways?

The fact that the team that did this lost?

Sports doesn't work like that. A beats B and B beats C doesn't mean that C won't beat A.

Chargers went undefeated vs Indy and KC this year. They also split with Cincy.

[Ben Kenobi]

Being mobile does not mean you can't also be a great passer. Why do you think they're mutually exclusive?

Because they simply aren't in the class of Brady, Manning, Brees and Rivers.

[Al B. Sure!]

Yep, because Seattle basically ignored Kaep's runs, and they won. They focussed on shutting down SF's run game, and on forcing Kaep to throw. SF had the losing strategy. As I said before, the way to win is to let them run, drop them and watch while they throw in pain for the rest of the game. Or maybe you knock them out entirely. Kaep had 120 on the ground, which is almost entirely negated by the two picks. Plus, he was lucky not to give up another fumble on top of it.

Dude. They lost 23-17 in a nail-bitter that came down to a throw in the endzone with 23 seconds left in the game. And the pick was an athletic feat off a tipped ball in the corner of the endzone after Kaepernick willed his team down the field.

That last drive:
Kaep 8yd pass to Boldin
Kaep incomplete pass
Kaep 17yd pass to Gore
Kaep 4yd run
Kaep 4yd pass to Boldin
Kaep 16yd pass to Crabtree
Kaep 11yd pass to Davis
Kaep INT intended for Crabtree

The 49ers damn nearly won that game. Ask MRT how he was feeling on that final drive.

Don't act like this close game wasn't close.

The fact that the team that did this lost?

What? What does this even mean?

I'm going to take this really slow with a hypothetical scenario so you understand:

Okay we all know that Peyton Manning is one of the greatest passers of all time. It's a tough assignment for a defense to try and stop him. You look at the Broncos and his arm is what scares you. Knowshon Moreno is a fine RB but you're not exactly too worried about him and there's only so much an RB can do. An RB can't get down the field and score on you in a handful of plays the way Peyton can.

Ideally, you want Peyton's arm to get shut down and the Broncos be forced to beat you with Moreno. Suppose you scheme based on this goal, playing lots of nickel and dime coverages, keeping your safeties back and your pass rush is entirely focused on putting pressure on Peyton. You don't care if your pass rushers get beat on draws or overshoot RB's trying to get to Peyton.

Now you know that unfortunately, you're probably going to give a career day to Moreno. He's going to get good yards on you at will with every carry. But you consider it worth it because each ground gain is still less average yards than each pass gain, the time comes off the clock a little faster, etc.

So you still lose as Moreno goes off for something like 150yds and 2 scores but Peyton has a pedestrian day throwing against your pass-focused defense, maybe 210yds and 1TD.

A simpleton (you) would say Peyton's not that great. Moreno had 150yds and 2 scores! He's a beast.

Someone not a simpleton (everyone else) would realize wait. The only reason Moreno had such a great game was because the defense pretty much ignored him. They were so focused on stopping Peyton, which they did. Essentially, Peyton's 'elite-ness' as a passer allowed Moreno to thrive.

This hypothetical scenario isn't far from reality. The Patriots just barely beat the Broncos this year, letting Moreno run 37 times for 224yds while Peyton had a miserable for Peyton 150yds 2TDs 1pick and barely completed 50% of his passes.


Now combine Peyton and Moreno into one person. This player is hardly Peyton when it comes to passing so his running is comparatively more dangerous. As a result, you scheme defensively the opposite way. You don't want him to run all over you, so you focus on stopping him running, using spies and contains. As a result, he gets nothing with his legs but has a solid day throwing the ball.

A simpleton (you) would say his running had nothing to do with his win. He beat them through the air!

Someone not a simpleton (everyone else) would realize wait. The only reason he was able to pass so effectively was because the defense was so focused on neutralizing his running ability, which they successfully stopped, but it left gaps in their defense that he could exploit with his arm.


So it does not matter that Wilson ran for nothing. The threat of his running helped him pass and win the game. That threat wouldn't exist if he weren't mobile.

Chargers went undefeated vs Indy and KC this year. They also split with Cincy.

Are you retarded? Just because Team A beats Team B and Team B beats Team C doesn't mean that Team A will beat Team C.

If the Chargers were the best team in football they'd be 16-0 and/or in the Super Bowl, not ****ing 9-7 and out.

[Al B. Sure!]

Sava, I don't know about how you define 'mobile QB', but Steve Young definitely was.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm

For his career he averaged 25 y/g rushing. During the peak of his career he had two years over 30 Y/G and only one season under 20. For comparative purposes, Wilson and Kaepernick were about 33/34 y/g. That sounds almost exactly the same - perhaps a bit less, but certainly in the same ballpark, and this is 10 years into his career (he had 46 Y/G his rookie season with TB).

Steve Young: Career 25.1 y/g rushing
Steve McNair: Career 22.3 y/g rushing
Donovan McNabb: Career 20.7 y/g rushing
David Garrard: Career 20.3 y/g rushing

I guess McNair, McNabb, and Garrard weren't mobile QB's!

This refusal to mark Steve Young as a mobile QB is so nonsensical. I'm beginning to wonder if to people like Sava mobile is just a code-word for Black.


I will say usage of the mobile QB can vary. Andrew Luck definitely has the skillset to be a mobile QB. He ran the same 40 time as Cam Newton. And he has 632yds and 9TDs rushing in two seasons so he does run a fair bit but it's just an ancillary talent. From his college days, the fact that he was a collegiate WR, and that he ran a faster 40 that Cam/Luck, we know that Ryan Tannehill is as mobile as anyone else, but the Dolphins utilize him purely as a passer, I would argue to their detriment.

So would you characterize Luck or Tannehill as mobile? I don't know. They have the speed and athletic ability, but they don't run as much as Newton who is no faster or more athletic.

Then you have Alex Smith who ran a not as fast 4.7 40 and was never known as much of a runner but he ran 76 times for 431yds this year in Andy Reid's offense. Did he suddenly become a mobile QB 8 years into his NFL career? I don't know how you would characterize that. But it's evident that Andy Reid favors mobile QB's so Smith became more mobile for the system.

[Al B. Sure!]

On an entirely different topic, Richard Sherman follows up his interview with an op-ed piece:

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/01/20/richard-sherman-interview-michael-crabtree/

It was loud, it was in the moment, and it was just a small part of the person I am. I don’t want to be a villain, because I’m not a villainous person. When I say I’m the best cornerback in football, it’s with a caveat: There isn’t a great defensive backfield in the NFL that doesn’t have a great front seven. Everything begins with pressure up front, and that’s what we get from our pass rushers every Sunday. To those who would call me a thug or worse because I show passion on a football field—don’t judge a person’s character by what they do between the lines. Judge a man by what he does off the field, what he does for his community, what he does for his family.

I do get a kick out of every time Sherman does something, people leap into calling him a thug as if he didn't graduate from Stanford and spend his final year of NCAA eligibility working on his Masters degree.