NHL Playoffs

[joncha]

Another one of those?

Yeah, it was brutal.

[Ben Kenobi]

Done! Canucks make it to the conference finals for the first time since '94! Awesome!

And then there were 5. One of them is Detroit.

[joncha]

On to round 3.

The last time Vancouver got this far, it always felt like somehow they'd find a way to win and that Kirk Maclean would keep playing above his ability to give them that chance.

This time around, I always have the feeling that Luongo will let in a soft one (or seven) at the wrong time and blow it for them.

[Ben Kenobi]

On to round 3.

The last time Vancouver got this far, it always felt like somehow they'd find a way to win and that Kirk Maclean would keep playing above his ability to give them that chance.

This time around, I always have the feeling that Luongo will let in a soft one (or seven) at the wrong time and blow it for them.

Have faith, keep the faith.

They have trailed so far a total of 11 minutes in two series. They have home ice advantage, and now, rest.

[Ben Kenobi]

Two, shiner! Two! Like the Count!

[Guynemer]

The Canucks have succeeded thus far by being significantly better than the other team on the ice, despite having their goaltender outplayed by both Crawford and Rinne.

That isn't going to happen next series, whether they face the Sharks or the Wings. Their only hope is that Det-SJ goes the full seven, and the winner is ridiculously banged-up and injured (Detroit is your best bet here).

[Flubber]

Overall he's playing better than he did in the regular season. So I really don't see why his netminding is the issue here. The Twins are a combined -14, and they don't seem to be attracting any criticism.

It puzzles me.

You obviously are not paying attention. It is accepted by EVERYONE that the Twins have been so awful as to defy belief. Its in allt he media I read and on the sports radio. There is really nothing to debate there.

Luongo is more interesting because he lets in an astonishingly bad goal in otherwise pretty good performances and then does it in another game and another

[Flubber]

Overall he's playing better than he did in the regular season. So I really don't see why his netminding is the issue here..

You seem to like the stats more than anything

reg season .928 2.11
playoff .917 2.25

How is this better?

And netminding is an issue whenever a goalie gives up what is perceived as a "bad goal" and it is magnified if they do it late in the game. A goalie that makes a fantastically improbable stop on a cross ice one-timer and then lets in an outside the blueline floater will be judged far more harshly that than the guy that stopped the floater and lets in the difficult one-- even if the end result is the same.

Luongo worries people (particularly Canuck fans) because

1. he has seemed off-balance and fighting the puck on a number of shots
2. he has allowed a surprising number of goals from very sharp angles/ behind the net
3. he has marred some fine performances by giving up a goal in the last two minutes of games

He has often been excellent-- the fact that he is back to .917, despite his meltdowns in the Chicago series, confirms this. But against nashville he also allowed in some really weak looking goals-- The fact that he overall gave up so few is a comment on Nashville's lack of offense and the fact that Vancouver was so much stronger.

Oh and questions about goalies abound-- Antii Niemi has a cup and still people question HIM ( the fact he is .892 3.21 doesn't help) But every other goalie still alive in the playoffs other than Niemi has better stats than Luongo. Rolosen has bumped his reg .914 2.59 up to a crazy good .941 2.01. Thomas (.928 2.00) is almost the same at .937 2.03. Howard, who was a fairly average .908 2.79 in the regular season has bumped himself up to a good .922 2.59. .

So Vancouver is in very good shape now. Either they face a battered Detroit (who will necessarily have played 7) OR they face a San Jose team that has its own post season demons AND a continuing question in goal... Interesting times


and through it all Vacouver has looked like a team that has another gear. My assessment though is that they better start elevating their game since Detroit OR SJ are miles ahead of a Nashville.

[Guynemer]

Also, question Niemi if you must, but he has one big achievement that has escaped Luongo thus far. All the pressure would be on Roberto.

[Flubber]

Belfour in his absolute prime in '93 went 0-4, with a 3.13 GAA and a sv pct of .882. against the St. Louis Blues, who lost in the next round, to Toronto, who were defeated by the LA Kings, who lost to the cup champions.

'Nuff said.

Belfour was also 34 when he finally won a cup with the Stars.

Hmm I won't argue your choice of belfour as a top 10 goalie all time since I did ask from YOUR list and there are people that place him that highly (he seems to show up about a quarter of the time as number 8-10 ) but I do have these quibbles

1. I asked for an example of a goalie that was pulled or did not start in the playoffs (this is usually concrete evidence that their own team is not satisfied with the play of their keeper). Instead you gave an example of mediocre/bad statistics by Belfour in a single series --- he surrendered 2,3,4 and 4 goals but he played all of all 4 games so you fundamentally did not provide the example I sought.

2. Just curious how you define in their prime- Belfours best three years statistically were 5-8 years later in 1997-1998 through to 1999-2000 at age 32-34. In that time he was pulled ONCE in a playoff game (game one of the 2000 finals) but followed it with a one goal .964. He gave up 7 goals over the next 4 games, including a 106 minute shutout win and an 88 minute 2-1 loss (so 1.4ish on the GAA??). I don't love Belfour on the all-time lists but this was his prime.



Ben, you yourself have railed against the small sample size of a 4 game series. A great goalie can have mediocre stas in a single game related to shot quality etc etc. If a goalie give up 2 goals on 17 shots it results in a bad save percentage even if that keeper was great on the night and one of his own players fired it into the net etc. But a goalie getting pulled in a playoff series more than once or not starting is a sign that the coaches and management were displeased with the play enough to choose someone else (Admittedly its also partly about the perception of the backup) . Can you come up with anyone in your top 10 list that was pulled as much as Luongo has in his prime or who has been passed over for starting?? ANYONE??

[Flubber]

Also, question Niemi if you must, but he has one big achievement that has escaped Luongo thus far. .

Niemi has a ring its true but his goaltending was not praised that much in that run and people cited last years as one of the worst goaltending matchup in a finals. That has to sting and he must want to prove himself. He has been good sometimes but also astoundingly inconsistent. If his play was anywhere near the level of Howards so far, that series would be over

[Ben Kenobi]

Just curious how you define in their prime- Belfours best three years statistically were 5-8 years later in 1997-1998 through to 1999-2000 at age 32-34. In that time he was pulled ONCE in a playoff game (game one of the 2000 finals) but followed it with a one goal .964. He gave up 7 goals over the next 4 games, including a 106 minute shutout win and an 88 minute 2-1 loss (so 1.4ish on the GAA??). I don't love Belfour on the all-time lists but this was his prime.

He won the Vezina in 1993. I think that qualifies as prime. You can't argue that he didn't play an absolutely terrible playoff series.

[Ben Kenobi]

The .917 is better than his career number. Sure, he's not played quite as well in the playoffs as he did this season, but I expect him to have a Luongo-like svpct of around .917 which he does. Let's get this perfectly clear, you are calling a .917 and 2.25 goalie as a 'soft goalie.' This is a pretty exceptional claim.

And netminding is an issue whenever a goalie gives up what is perceived as a "bad goal" and it is magnified if they do it late in the game.

The same way that baseball overrates Big Papi because he hits a homerun in the end of the game. In the long run the time that the goal is scored is irrelevant.

1. he has seemed off-balance and fighting the puck on a number of shots

Frankly, we've been spoiled. Go watch some of McLean's actual games. He doesn't worry me because I've seen Cloutier in the playoffs.

2. he has allowed a surprising number of goals from very sharp angles/ behind the net

Small sample sizes.

3. he has marred some fine performances by giving up a goal in the last two minutes of games

Something like this prevented him from getting close to 10 SOs. The question is whether it's Bobby Lou, or the team.

Howard, who was a fairly average .908 2.79 in the regular season has bumped himself up to a good .922 2.59. .

Who has been outplayed by Luongo. Right now, it's Rolosen, Tim Thomas, Luongo, Howard and Neimi, which is not exactly a bad place to be.

My assessment though is that they better start elevating their game since Detroit OR SJ are miles ahead of a Nashville

Chicago was +33, San Jose was +35 over the season. The Canucks have already defeated a team comparable to either San Jose or Detroit.

[Ben Kenobi]

despite having their goaltender outplayed by both Crawford and Rinne.

Which is why Rinne has worse numbers? Bobby Lou outplayed Rinne in the series.

[Ben Kenobi]

Flubber, by any objective measure, Neimi is the odd man out. Not Bobby Lou.