NFL - Are You Ready For Some Football?! - Off Season

[Ben Kenobi]

The facts are that Jackson rarely would face double coverage and when he did, he was always shut down.

Going 1/1 is getting 'shut down'? The Chargers threw to everyone who wasn't covered. Why would you force balls into double coverage if you don't have to? That's always been the case with Vincent Jackson, he plays in a competent offense that understands how to spread the ball around. This, btw is why teams don't double cover Jackson because they were absolutely shredded by LT and Rivers.

You agree to all of that yet somehow Marshall's superior stats don't equate to Marshall being better?

His stats aren't superior. That's the point. Jackson on 81 targets last year brought down more yards than Marshall on close to 200.

Can someone not from the Beniverse tell me if I've lost my mind?

Go reread Jag's post.

[flash9286]

Going 1/1 is getting 'shut down'? The Chargers threw to everyone who wasn't covered. Why would you force balls into double coverage if you don't have to? That's always been the case with Vincent Jackson, he plays in a competent offense that understands how to spread the ball around. This, btw is why teams don't double cover Jackson because they were absolutely shredded by LT and Rivers.

How does this help your argument that Jackson is a better receiver than Marshall, other than Jackson getting less targets? Jackson got to play in 1 on 1 coverage, while Marshall had to play with double coverage. Jackson couldn't get open with double coverage.

[Al B. Sure!]

Going 1/1 is getting 'shut down'? The Chargers threw to everyone who wasn't covered. Why would you force balls into double coverage if you don't have to?

Umm... it's called getting open Vincent Jackson apparently was incapable of doing that when he got doubled.

Marshall faces double coverage on every down and still gets his targets and makes his catches Jackson doesn't and can't.

Go reread Jag's post.

I think Jag went statistic analysis happy and forgot to consider what is happening on the field.

[Ben Kenobi]

Umm... it's called getting open

Player A, we'll call him "Antonio Gates" has a LB on him. Player B, we'll call him "Vincent Jackson", has Revis with safety help. Who do you throw to all day? That's right, Antonio Gates. Turner is happy when teams double up on Jackson, because it means he's exploiting everybody else.

This is how good offenses work. See NO, Indy, or SD.

Why do you think Cutler had so many picks? Throwing into double coverage is a terrible deal. Sure you can throw it up to Brandon Marshall 50 percent of the time, and have it go for 6 y/a. That's right Albert. 100 catches on 180 attempts for 1k yards is about 6. This is below NFL average. Or you can go with 1k from Jackson on 81 attempts, for 12 y/a. He's twice as efficient as Marshall. Gee isn't that funny. Twice as much coverage, half as efficient. There's a reason why teams doubled Marshall, because it was effective at defeating them.

Put it this way, Denver with Orton and Royal is doing much better. Why? Besides Royal being a better receiver, they are spreading the ball around more.

[Ben Kenobi]

I think Jag went statistic analysis happy and forgot to consider what is happening on the field.

Sig worthy. At least you beat Imran though?

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm not even going to bother

[flash9286]

Jackson: 109, 100, 81. Those are pretty low numbers for a #1 receiver. Reason for that is a guy named Antonio Gates, who is the true #1 option in San Diego. Jackson has done much more with much fewer targets, although obviously in a context of a much better offense. However, those past two years are amazing in terms of efficiency.

This doesn't make sense, of course Jackson is going to be more efficient because he plays in a better offense in which he is the deep threat receiver. Marshall had to be the deep threat, medium threat, and short threat for his team, so of course he is going to have less yds/att or rec.

[Ben Kenobi]

he plays in a better offense in which he is the deep threat receiver.

Last I checked Marshall played on the offensive side of the ball. Let me ask you this. If Marshall really were one of the best WRs in the game, why isn't the Bronco's offense better?

[ColdWizard]

why? Why?? WHY??? Why do you DO this sort of thing, Al? Page after page of first Kold v Vick and now V-Jax v Marshall? And this debate is with Ben? I'd rather talk about Dallas with Sloww.

Don't you think they should try to run the ball more?

[Al B. Sure!]

Last I checked Marshall played on the offensive side of the ball. Let me ask you this. If Marshall really were one of the best WRs in the game, why isn't the Bronco's offense better?

I don't understand what you're trying to get at with that last sentence... I think you mis-spoke so I'll try to address all likely possibilities as to what you meant:

why wasn't the Bronco's offense better? The Broncos offense was pretty good the past few years with Marshall. The emergence of Marshall (and Cutler) turned the Broncos from a run-first offense with Plummer to a pass-first offense with Marshall being the only real weapon in the passing game (Eddie Royal was a great complementary receiver his rookie year then became a non-factor in his second year with the transition from Shanahan to McDaniels)

Check the progression:
2006: Plummer at QB and Walker as leading receiver: ranked 21st in yards
2007: Cutler/Marshall: 11th in yards
2008: Cutler/Marshall: 2nd in yards (2nd best offense in the NFL!)
2009: Orton/Marshall: 15th in yards

Marshall clearly had a big role in improving that offense.


why isn't the Broncos offense worse?
It's only been 2 games so it's hard to really say if the Broncos have or have not lost a step with the loss of Marshall. Bringing in the #1 receiver taken in the draft definitely helps their offense. Also, it's not like anyone has emerged in the past two games and is hauling in passes like Marshall was... Royal has 163 yards, Lloyd has 170 yards, Thomas has 97, and Gaffney has 49. This is clearly an offense that has been forced to move to spreading the ball around in the absence of Marshall and is requiring all of its receivers to get in on the action to match Marshall's would-be production. This is pretty much what you would expect...


why isn't the Dolphins offense better?
Again, it's only been two games but the Dolphins are undefeated so far so they clearly have not been terrible. Chad Henne is a young QB who needs to develop a rhythm with Marshall and two games is not enough time to make a judgement as to if that rhythm is going to develop. The Dolphins also run the ball more than they pass so Marshall isn't getting as many targets as he used to. There is no legitimate reason to write off Marshall putting together yet another 1200 yard season yet though.

[flash9286]

Last I checked Marshall played on the offensive side of the ball. Let me ask you this. If Marshall really were one of the best WRs in the game, why isn't the Bronco's offense better?

nevermind, see Al.'s post above.

[Al B. Sure!]

The fact is that if a receiver is productive while being double teamed all the time, he's clearly one of the best receivers in the league. Guys like Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith, and Brandon Marshall all consistently face double teams and all consistently perform as superb levels... then you have guys like Santana Moss who's very inconsistent because he has to face so much double coverage and he's just not good enough to get open and make something happen with consistency... then finally you have guys like Vincent Jackson who is rarely the opposing defense's focus and therefore can run relatively free in the secondary since he typically only has to beat one man.

[Ben Kenobi]

Seems to me the baseline is around 10th with Marshall. That 2nd place? Royal healthy. I'm really not seeing it Albert. Marshall just doesn't elevate the team the way that Royal does.

There is no legitimate reason to write off Marshall putting together yet another 1200 yard season yet though.

I wouldn't take that gamble. He's on the all-disappointment team so far given his draft position.

[Al B. Sure!]

Sigh... compare to the Chargers... leading QB and leading receiver and total yardage ranking:

2006: Rivers/Gates: 4th in yards (Eric Parker and Keenan McCardell as leading receivers) Note, FOURTH BEST OFFENSE IN NFL
2007: Rivers/Gates: 20th in yards (Jackson becomes the leading WR but Gates still leads in yardage)
2008: Rivers/Jackson: 11th in yards
2009: Rivers/Jackson: 10th in yards


The Chargers were the 4th best offense in the NFL in terms of yardage with Eric Parker and Keenan McCardell at WR. Holy **** I don't even know who Eric Parker is and Keenan McCardell is a bum. Those two leaving and Jackson coming in as the top WR led to a decline to 20th best offense. Things improved obviously with time but how much of that is really from Jackson and how much from Gates? And the Chargers still didn't get back to their old offensive production with McCardell, Eric I seriously never have seen his name before in my life Parker, and Reche ****ing Caldwell.

[Ben Kenobi]

Albert, what you really want is the passing yardage.

2006 - 3400
2007 - 3600
2008 - 4000
2009 - 4400

As you can see, Vincent Jackson's emergence put the team over 4k passing yards in 2008.

The difference between 2008-9 is that Gates had a monster season last year. What you don't see is the decline in yardage, as you see with Denver the year Royal was hurt.