NFL - Are You Ready For Some Football?! - Off Season

[Al B. Sure!]

Oh and Roethlisberger is more than a franchise QB. He's pretty much cemented his future Hall of Fame status. Two rings and a third SB appearance and he still has a decade of play ahead of him. Roethlisberger is going to be a HoFer unless off the field activities derail him.

[Al B. Sure!]

From Slate... it touches on some of the stuff I mentioned with regards to Cunningham but gives more info on why Cunningham is one of the better QB's of all-time, let alone a clear-cut franchise QB. From 2002 so a little outdated though.

Cunningham's stats match or beat the Hall of Fame locks of his era. Dan Marino and John Elway played in offenses geared to their passing ability and had almost double Randall's passing attempts, so they racked up bigger numbers. Marino and Elway are ranked 1 and 2 in most all-time passing stats, but Randall is in the top 25, and there are 25 QBs in the hall—you do the math. The all-important yards-per-pass attempt stat is basically equal: Marino 7.3 per attempt, Elway 7.1, Cunningham 7.0. And Cunningham has a better TD-to-INT ratio than Elway, 1.54 to 1.33.

Randall compares more favorably to Troy Aikman, another Canton lock, who played exactly one less game in his career. Aikman, one of history's most accurate passers, beats out Randall in completion percentage (61.5 to 56.6) and has about 3,000 more yards in 500 more attempts. But Randall threw for 42 more TDs and seven fewer INTs, and the yards-per-attempt for both is 7.0. Toss in the rushing (4,928 yards and 35 TDs for Cunningham, 1,016 and nine for Aikman), and Cunningham moves past the Golden Boy.

And whither Warren Moon? The general consensus is that Moon is a Hall of Famer while Randall isn't. The former Oiler racked up huge numbers by throwing on virtually every down, and he ranks just behind Marino and Elway in the accumulated stats. But his TD-to-INT ratio (1.24) is much lower than Cunningham's (1.54). And Moon, hardly a sterling playoff performer, never took his team to a Super Bowl. If Moon belongs in the Hall, so does Randall.

Like Archie Manning, Cunningham racked up his numbers with mediocre supporting casts. His receivers and backs in the Eagle era included the geriatric Herschel Walker, the oft-injured Keith Jackson and Fred Barnett, Keith Byars, and other assorted mediocrities. Only during his comeback with Minnesota—throwing to Cris Carter and Randy Moss, with Robert Smith running through gaping holes—did Randall get in on the fun Montana, Aikman, and Steve Young were having for most of their careers.

About that comeback: In 1998, already knocked out of the game by injuries, the 35-year-old Cunningham left his granite and marble business in Las Vegas and mounted one of the more triumphant and unlikely second acts in NFL history. The nonpareil scrambler reinvented himself as a pure pocket passer. The Vikes set the single-season points record, as Randall threw for more than 3,700 yards and 34 TDs with an astounding 106 QB rating. Cunningham was voted to his fourth Pro Bowl, and Minnesota dominated the league, going 16-1 before falling to Atlanta in the NFC Championship game.

**** man... Look:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/

In 1987, 88, 89, 90, Randall Cunningham led the Eagles in RUSHING. FOUR STRAIGHT YEARS leading his team in RUSHING! He averaged 673 yards rushing per season those four years.

Not to mention averaging 3365 yards passing in those 4 healthiest years with the Eagles.

How can anyone be so wrong?!

[-Jrabbit]

In my book, above average good solid QB's ARE franchise QB's.

This bizarre POV is, in fact, the crux of our disagreement. I have trouble with a QB rating of 75 being a "franchise" player.
completion % - 29th
QB rating - 27th

Does he have the potential? Sure, why not. But IS he a franchise player? Not now, and his development does not seem to be progressing very quickly. We shall see. To my eye, he's a lot close to Testaverde than he is to Brady.

FWIW, I definitely consider Randall Cunningham HOF-worthy. He suffered playing on mediocre teams most of his career. And anytime your QB leads the team in rushing -- even for a Cunningham or a Vick -- it's an embarrassment.

[Ben Kenobi]

Cunningham's only knock was his durability.

Isn't that what I said?

averaging 3365 yards passing in those 4 healthiest years

So what? Flutie averaged 3115 in the only three years where he played the majority of the games, and he still missed 8 games. He averaged 3760 had he played three full seasons.

As a franchise player, for sure. As a Franchise QB? No. Great player, mediocre at best as a QB. If you are going to argue peak, 3300 yards over 4 years isn't high enough or long enough. Had he played another season, sure but he didn't so he's not in.

10 years at 3000 yards a season, 5 at 3600 or 2 at 4000

As for Aikman:

He's got 2940/year for 10 years.

Krieg 2991/year for 10 years.

Cunningham 2668/year for 10 years, and that's including his rushing yards.

Testaverde is easily over, 3256/10, and his peak wasn't bad too, 3680/5 years. Testaverde's peak was far superior to Cunningham.

[Al B. Sure!]

Isn't that what I said?

Are you losing your mind? You said nothing about durability nor gave any reason why Cunningham missed your 'cut-off' to the inclusion of players who were essentially bums like Testaverde and Krieg.

This was your exact post:

Hmm, I'd call the Franchise QB level folks like:

Rivers, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, and Schaub, (I'll give you McNabb).

I'll give you Bledsoe, and I'd add Testaverde, Warner, Kreig, (Esiason), and Simms. Cunningham just misses my cutoff.

Isn't that what you said? Huh? Where did you bring up durability?

Now Testaverde and Krieg being franchise players?! How many god damn teams did Testaverde play for? He played for 7 damn teams! That's literally NOT a franchise QB by definition! A franchise QB plays for 2-3 teams in his career at a most because whatever team he is on wants to keep him as long as possible because he's you know, actually good.

Let's look at Testaverde. He was 90-123-1 in his career... .420. That's unbelievably bad (and compare it to Cunningham's fantastic .607). He only had 3 playoff appearances in his 21 year career!

Testaverde had only one 4000 yard season with the 1996 just-moved Baltimore Ravens. It earned him a Pro Bowl nod. The thing is, his team went 4-12.

(For comparison, Cunningham had 3 4000 yard seasons if you include rushing yards)

Does anyone else who doesn't think Doug Flutie is the greatest QB of all time think Testaverde was anything but a mediocre QB?

And who the **** is Dave Krieg? I mean, seriously. Okay, he played for the Seahawks for a while but that just means he's like a Jake Delhomme-level QB to me. He was good enough for a little while but hardly much of a star.

Pro Football Reference is cool because they have a list of "Players whose career was of similar quality and shape". Krieg's list for his 12 years with the Seahawks:
Jim Hart, Jim Harbaugh, Jim Everett, Ron Jaworski, Kerry Collins, Eddie LeBaron, Phil Simms, Ken O'Brien, Tommy Kramer, John Hadl

****ing exactly! Phil Simms is the best QB on that list.

See, I was a kid when these guys played in their primes so maybe I'm missing something because you when you're a kid it's the flashy guys who you pay attention to but Testaverde and Krieg aren't in the same ballpark as Cunningham.

So what? Flutie averaged 3115 in the only three years where he played the majority of the games, and he still missed 8 games. He averaged 3760 had he played three full seasons.

Flutie didn't rush for 600+ yards a season.

As a franchise player, for sure. As a Franchise QB? No. Great player, mediocre at best as a QB. If you are going to argue peak, 3300 yards over 4 years isn't high enough or long enough. Had he played another season, sure but he didn't so he's not in.

10 years at 3000 yards a season, 5 at 3600 or 3 at 4000

You do realize that neither Testaverde nor Krieg fit your parameters for a franchise QB, right? Testaverde had a single 4000 yard season and Krieg never surpassed 3671 yards.

You do realize that Cunningham had 3 4000 yard seasons if you include rushing yards? And why wouldn't you include rushing yards? Those yards still contribute to the game, do they not?

[Al B. Sure!]

This bizarre POV is, in fact, the crux of our disagreement. I have trouble with a QB rating of 75 being a "franchise" player.
completion % - 29th
QB rating - 27th

Does he have the potential? Sure, why not. But IS he a franchise player? Not now, and his development does not seem to be progressing very quickly. We shall see. To my eye, he's a lot close to Testaverde than he is to Brady.

He's in his 2nd season, Jrabbit.

In his second season, Eli had a QB rating of 75.9 and was 23rd in QB rating for that (2005) season between... Trent Dilfer and Josh McCown

Eli's 52.8% completion percentage placed him at 31st that year between Kerry Collins and Gus Frerotte.

Now maybe my opinion of the QB Eli turned out to be is a little more rose-colored than yours, but Eli is one of the league's better QB's and is the undisputed franchise QB of the Giants and will be for a long time. Yet his second year numbers (which came supported with the 6th ranked rushing attack [2209 rushing yards]) are pretty similar if not slightly worse than Sanchez'.

Sanchez will be just fine. He is statistically exactly where you expect a 2nd year QB to be. We've been spoiled the last few years with the Roethlisbergers, Flaccos, Ryans, and Bradfords. QB's normally come along slowly and it's the 3rd year that is the critical season.

[Al B. Sure!]

Some awards won by Randall Cunningham:

Awards
1988 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)
1990 NFL PFWA MVP
1990 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)
1992 NFL AP Comeback Player of the Year
1998 NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc. MVP
1998 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)

Cunningham won the Bert Bell Award 3 times! The only player to ever do so.

The Bert Bell Award for the Professional American football Player of the Year is presented by the Maxwell Football Club. This award is named in honor of Bert Bell (1895-1959), Commissioner of the National Football League (NFL) and founder of the Maxwell Club. Voters for the Pro Awards are NFL owners, football personnel, head and assistant coaches as well as members of the Maxwell Football Club, national media, both electronic and print, and local media. The award consists of a trophy in the form of a statue in the likeness of Bell. The award is presented at the club's annual football banquet.

Awards won by Testaverde and Krieg:

*crickets*

[Al B. Sure!]

Quarterbacks are not just passers. The ultimate job of a QB is to win games. A QB uses whatever he has to that end, whether it's his arm, his legs, or his leadership ability.

This is something that is hinted at by others besides Ben, but I don't see why a QB who runs a lot is somehow worse than a QB who passes only. Is running an easy way out? Do rushing yards not contribute to the game's outcome? In my mind, a QB who can pass effectively AND run is that much better of a QB because he has an entire extra facet to his game.

Could a Cunningham or a Vick throw for 4000 yards? I don't see why they couldn't if they wanted to.

In fact, look at the 98 Vikings season. Cunningham, at age 35, mind you, became a pure passer. He threw for 3704 yards in 14 starts that season. Considering this pace, he would have thrown for 4000 yards that year had he played every game, and actually did throw for 4206 yards if you include his two playoff games that year.

But earlier in his career, Cunningham knew that his running ability gave the Eagles their best chance to win... he was the team's leading rusher for 4 straight years, after all, so he was both their best QB and their best RB. In fact, Buddy Ryan told Cunningham that he wanted him to be as much of a runner as possible.



"Buddy's orders to Randall were run-first, throw-second" - Dave Duerson
"Buddy Ryan comes in and says I want you to be faster than you are now. So he trained me like I was a race-horse. He developed me to be a running quarterback, not just a scrambling quarterback" - Randall Cunningham


What is the definition of a quarterback? From Websters':

an offensive back in football who usually lines up behind the center, calls the signals, and directs the offensive play of the team

That's all it technically is. Does it say a passer only? No. He directs and executes the offense. The distinction of whether that involves him running or throwing is irrelevant to the job of the QB.

[-Jrabbit]

Sanchez will be just fine. He is statistically exactly where you expect a 2nd year starting QB to be. We've been spoiled the last few years with the Roethlisbergers, Flaccos, Ryans, and Bradfords. QB's normally come along slowly and it's the 3rd year that is the critical season.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems to me that he's exactly where you'd expect an AVERAGE 2nd year QB to be. Look at those other names; THOSE are franchise QBs. The bar has been raised.

[OzzyKP]

Quarterbacks are not just passers. The ultimate job of a QB is to win games. A QB uses whatever he has to that end, whether it's his arm, his legs, or his leadership ability.

Agreed. I don't get all the complaining about running QBs.

[OzzyKP]

Ho-hum

Likewise, players need to understand that owners are faced with some high-risk expenditures in coming years. For example, the league is hoping to have at least two new stadiums built in California over the next five years: one in the Bay Area and the other in either Los Angeles or San Diego. In addition, Minnesota is hoping to build a new stadium and Miami is hoping to upgrade its current facility. Given the lack of public funding available in almost every city, a large portion of the investment will have to come from the league.

Finally, and most importantly, NFL owners will likely never be able to solve one of the biggest problems they face: The ability to share all revenue. Currently, owners share TV and ticket revenue, but other revenue from items such as naming rights is not shared. Throw on top of that that some owners have better stadium deals than others (the Cincinnati Bengals get almost every dollar from a stadium that was publicly funded while the Minnesota Vikings get next to nothing) and you have drastically unequal situations.

It has led to huge resentment between high-revenue owners (Jerry Jones of Dallas, for example) and low-revenue owners (Zygi Wilf of Minnesota, for example).

Or as one union source said: “What the owners want is for the players to solve their revenue-sharing problem. The owners can’t agree on how to split the profits, but they all can agree to take the money from the players.”

Did no one else notice that? So.. whose team is relocating?

[ColdWizard]

Jaguars.

[OzzyKP]

I've heard that said. But there are plenty of teams with worse attendance:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance/_/sort/homePct

[Lord Avalon]

A bit belated

Did anyone watch Real Sports #166, originally aired 1/25? It had sobering post-NFL segments on a couple of players who went bankrupt (they reported that more ex-NFL players go bankrupt than in other sports), and the health risks of over-300-lb players (you wouldn't recognize Nate Newton, who was over 400 lbs post-NFL, and is now half the man he used to be). Also segments on Troy Aikman and Peter King.

[SlowwHand]

Nate does lap band commercials that air here.