Pujols wins unanimously for NL MVP:
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Originally posted by Ming View PostWaiinwright had the most wins.
And this is the type of idiocy some of us are attempting to overcome. Relying on Wins to determine who is the best pitcher in the league is moronic. Let's just give the AL Cy Young to Justin Verlander instead of Zack Greinke then. After all, he had the most wins and pitched great for a full year and had the most strike outs.
And I didn't know if that was your intent, but you may have reunited Arrian and I on the same side of an argument .Last edited by Imran Siddiqui; November 24, 2009, 15:58.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Definitely. Pitcher wins are a junk stat (TEAM wins are, obviously, entirely another matter). On that we agree.
I don't see Wainright over Carpenter as egregious (though Haren might've had a better case), though - AGAIN - I think I'd have put Carpenter over Wainright.
We're really splitting hairs here. Spring Training can't come soon enough.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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I don't see Wainright over Carpenter as egregious (though Haren might've had a better case)“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Oy. I can't argue about this anymore. The way I see it, you had ~5 guys who had excellent seasons. To me, it probably breaks down like this:
Lincecum
Haren
Carpenter
Wainright
Vasquez
But that's off-the-cuff. I can't get too worked up about it, because it really was very close.
-Arrian
p.s. Before Law's and Carrol's votes, I'd pretty much forgotten about Haren and Vasquez. I'd have said Lincecum-Carpenter-Wainright.grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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All I'm saying is that I find it incredibly weird for someone to leave off Chris Carpenter from their entire ballot. Maybe if they had a consistent argument (then I'd think they were crazy, but at least they are consistent)...“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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Your standard for "incredibly weird" and "utterly stupid" is lower than mine.
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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Well considering how Law started engaging in taunting of St. Louis fans on Twitter right afterwards, I see it as a pattern...
I can understand someone putting Wainwright over Carpenter if they are see of the old troglodyte school of wins matter most, but not really stat hounds.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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I'm pretty sure he didn't start it. I'll bet it starting during one of his chats at ESPN. He probably got flooded with "WTF! You just hate St. Louis!" and had a typical, snarky KLaw reaction to it. This is a common theme in his chats - the number of people who come on and accuse him of "hating" their team. It's pretty funny, because it seems like every fanbase thinks he hates them and loves their rivals (see also: Red Sox fans who think ESPN is pro-Yankees, and Yankees fans who call it "NESPN").
If he did anything wrong here, it was forcing things so that he could make an "outside the box" vote. Or he could just like FIP more than you. Vasquez: 2.77, Carpenter: 2.78, Wainwright: 3.11, Haren: 3.23. Vasquez and Carp are dead even, with the innings edge going to Vasquez (192 to 219). Wainright and Haren have even more innings (233 and 229), but higher FIPs.
And with that, seriously, I'm done. I'm bored and procrastinating, but this is silly.
-Arrian
p.s. Lincecum: 2.62 FIP, 225 1/3 IP. If FIP & IP are what you decide on, you'd go Lincecum, Vasquez, Wainright/Carpenter (either is justifiable), Haren. Oh, wait... that's what Law did.grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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If he likes FIP so much, why is Wainwright ahead of Carpenter .
Of course there is xFIP (expected FIP) as well (which Law undoubtably knows about), which normalizes home run rates and Haren jumps to third there (3.16) behind Vasquez and Lincecum. Carpenter and Wainwright are tied at 3.45 in xFIP.
Also Carpenter is above Wainwright in VORP (68.7 to 68.1).
But, you know...
So yeah, it may be "close", but I just can't see putting Wainwright above Carpenter.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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I'm a liar. I AM that bored...
If he likes FIP so much, why is Wainwright ahead of Carpenter
So yeah, it may be "close", but I just can't see putting Wainwright above Carpenter.
I showed you how Law could rationally come to his voting decision. I personally think FIP is good but not THAT good. There are pitchers who can outperform their FIP somewhat over time (Mariano Rivera, for instance, though perhaps some of that is simply being a closer - sometimes when you give up runs the game ends before you can give up any more), and pitchers who tend to underperform it (Javier Vasquez, he of the "one big inning").
-Arriangrog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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Innings only work if Wainwright has done something much more substantial with them. According to WAR, he hasn't. Usually those who use a sabermetric function like FIP or xFIP won't use something as utterly pedestrian as innings pitched, but will use something like WAR or VORP, which measures value over an entire season (and therefore a bump is realized for more innings).“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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But you never know if additional innings might have hurt Carpenter... What if he had pitched a full season and gotten tired down the stretch. You never know. Sure, you can look at straight line projections, but pitchers can tire as the season drags on. Carpenter only started 28 games.
Again, maybe if everybody agreed on some formula that incorporated all the meaningful stats, a vote wouldn't be needed. But there are no exact guidelines on what makes a Cy Young winner. Whether you agree with somebodies vote or not it's pretty much based on what you determine is important. And it's not like Wainwright sucked, he had a good year.Keep on Civin'
RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O
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Very interesting trade today involving Curtis Granderson to the Yankees. Detroit would get Austin Jackson and Phil Coke from New York and Max Scherzer from Arizona. Arizona would get Edwin Jackson and Ian Kennedy.
Looks solid from Detroit's perspective. Not sure what Arizona really gained.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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There are also conflicting reports of whether Arizona is going to be Dan Schlereth in the deal to Detroit (MLB.com and Gammons saying they will, ESPN silent on that). If so, its really stupid for Arizona.“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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