NHL Playoff Discussion Thread

[Asher]

If it were so easy to win the Cup with the Wings, how come Hasek only managed it once? Not to mention Curtis Joseph, or any other goalie?

Why has Ozzy already done it twice, and has a chance for a third time?

It's the team infront and its experience, and your opposition.

Singling out Osgood as the reason the Wings -- a team stacked head to toe with talent and led by a once-in-a-generation defenseman with a proven excellent coach -- win cups is beyond a bit silly.

Osgood was a Detroit goalie in the playoffs many times without bringing home the cup. Moreso than he brought it home...

[Guynemer]

I'm not saying he's the only reason. But he's a bigger reason than you give credit for.

He's been back with the Wings for the past four seasons. The first two, he wasn't the playoff starter. Last year, he took over and the Wings won it all. They have a chance at a repeat this year.

96-97: Vernon started, Wings won the Cup
97-98: Ozzy started, Wings won the Cup
98-99: Ozzy started then got injured, Ranford took over, Wings lost in second round
99-00: Ozzy started, Wings lost in second round (despite 1.97/.924)
00-01: Ozzy started, Wings lost in first round
01-02: Hasek started, Wings won the Cup
02-03: Joseph started, Wings lost in first round
03-04: Jospeh started, Wings lost in second round
05-06: Legace started, Wings lost in first round
06-07: Hasek started, Wings lost in third round
07-08: Hasek started, got pulled for Ozzy, Wings won the Cup
08-09: Ozzy started...


So, Ozzy is batting .400 in five oppotunities with the Wings since 1997, counting the year he got injured. Better than all the other goalies in the same period (other than Vernon), including instant first-ballot Hall of Famer Dominik Hasek.


Look, Asher, I'm not saying Osgood is the best goalie alive. I'm just saying he's a much better, more reliable goaltender than most people credit him for; and yes, he is a big part of the Red Wings' success.

[notyoueither]

It is not uncommon for a player who is not flashy to take a while to be appreciated. Winning certainly helps that cause. In fact, I recall a time when someone in the Eastern media said that Gretzky was not good enough to hold Richard's jock strap.

55666666

Edit: that last bit is Zeb the cat's first communication with the interwebs.

[Asher]

I'm not saying he's the only reason. But he's a bigger reason than you give credit for.

He's been back with the Wings for the past four seasons. The first two, he wasn't the playoff starter. Last year, he took over and the Wings won it all. They have a chance at a repeat this year.

96-97: Vernon started, Wings won the Cup
97-98: Ozzy started, Wings won the Cup
98-99: Ozzy started then got injured, Ranford took over, Wings lost in second round
99-00: Ozzy started, Wings lost in second round (despite 1.97/.924)
00-01: Ozzy started, Wings lost in first round
01-02: Hasek started, Wings won the Cup
02-03: Joseph started, Wings lost in first round
03-04: Jospeh started, Wings lost in second round
05-06: Legace started, Wings lost in first round
06-07: Hasek started, Wings lost in third round
07-08: Hasek started, got pulled for Ozzy, Wings won the Cup
08-09: Ozzy started...


So, Ozzy is batting .400 in five oppotunities with the Wings since 1997, counting the year he got injured. Better than all the other goalies in the same period (other than Vernon), including instant first-ballot Hall of Famer Dominik Hasek.


Look, Asher, I'm not saying Osgood is the best goalie alive. I'm just saying he's a much better, more reliable goaltender than most people credit him for; and yes, he is a big part of the Red Wings' success.

If he were a reliable goaltender his regular season numbers wouldn't stink up the joint.

I think you underestimate how good Detroit's D is at helping out their goaltenders the past few years especially. It's pretty amazing.

[Guynemer]

I know how good the Wing's D is; Lidstrom is the best defenseman of his generation, easily one of the top five to ever play. But he was three years younger three seasons ago, and it didn't help the Wings goalie that year.

The regular season means **** all. The playoffs are where championships are won; they are the only season that truly matters.

[Ming]

The regular season means **** all. The playoffs are where championships are won; they are the only season that truly matters.

True enough... Just like in Basketball, too many teams make it to the playoffs, making the regular season far more meaningless than in some other sports. The percentage of teams that make the playoffs is too high. But considering some teams don't actually start making money until the playoffs, one can understand the current system

[Guynemer]

Agreed. If I had my druthers, the number of playoff teams would be cut in half.

[Ming]

MLB - 8 teams total out of 30 = 26.6%
NFL - 12 teams total out of 32 = 37.5%
NBA - 16 teams total out of 30 = 52.2%
NHL - 16 teams total out of 30 = 52.2%

When over half the teams make the playoffs, and some of them with terrible records, the regular season is kind of meaningless

[Supr49er]

Some of us Sharks fans think the regular season is meaningless anyway.

[Flubber]

Guynemer

I think you make a pretty good case for osgood. You don't argue that he is the best, you simply argue he is good enough and a contributor if I have followed your argument.

It is tough to argue with his success-- and even though Osgoods overall career number like .906 sv % which si pretty average/reasonable for a number one, he has been better in the playoffs, particularly the last two years and his cup success is undeniable. but he is also a guy that seems to lose his number one status fairly regularly in regular season play

So in some ways he is a bit of a cipher or enigma-- How come he looks so bad at times and then can turn it on for the playoffs

I can see why Asher doesn't really see Osgood as elite-- he has so frequently been mediocre-- BUT last year Osgood was pretty stellar and this playoff he seems pretty solid-- With this Wings team, that may be all that they need

[Guynemer]

Yeah, it is a bit of a mystery. Although, in his defense, he was stellar in the regular season last year; this regular season was a bit of an aberration.

[Flubber]

Yeah, it is a bit of a mystery. Although, in his defense, he was stellar in the regular season last year; this regular season was a bit of an aberration.

Interestingly he still elevated his play a fair bit

07-08 .915 2.09 were his reg season stats which are very good but in the playoffs he went to a .930 and 1.55 which are tremendous

08-09 his .887 3.09 are the type of numbers posted by wannabes and backups but his playoffs so far is a very good .921 and 2.14

How bad were Osgoodes numbers this year?? He was 45th of the 47 goalies that had enough minutes on sv % and 41st on GAA. THink about that for a second -- A DETROIT goalie 41st on GAA ??????? But in the playoffs he is something like 4th and 2nd.


But looking at Osgoode's career numbers-- a .906 for his career is downright mediocre really-- a .906 places you 30th in the league this year and while I acknowledge that sv % has flaws in that quality of chances can skew it as a measure of goaltending preformance if looked at on a night by night basis, its a pretty darn good measure in the long run-- His less than imposing performance is amply demonstrated by how often he has lost the starting job to different folks

But to his credit, Osgoode has found his game in the playoffs and been very good these last two years. he is still not my choice if I could pick anyone but frankly at his salary cap hit-- he is quite a good fit for the Wings

Oh and Asher given Kipper's very mediocre play and LARGE cap hit, I don't feel we can say much about the Wings approach-- I know he was a playoff warrior in the past (WORST sv % was .921) but more recently his regular season play has been mediocre (.906 and .903 so WORSE than Osgood's career number) and was no better in the playoffs ( a.908 and a .884)

.884????? I know its a 6 game stat, so skewed a fair bit by a single performance etc etc but he let the Flames done repeatedly in the series

I want to believe in KIpper as he has been so good in the past BUT its hard to argue that we could have gotten a million or 1.5 million goalie that could have equalled Kippers numbers of the last two years

[Asher]

yes, he's underperformed.

The whole team got defensively worse though. I don't think Kipper's been that bad, it was just exaggerated by defensive ineptitude.

[Flubber]

yes, he's underperformed.

The whole team got defensively worse though. I don't think Kipper's been that bad, it was just exaggerated by defensive ineptitude.

Team defensive problems will absolutely have a major impact on GAA.

But sv %?? To argue in favor of Kipper you need to think that the Flames were giving up a greater proportion of of quality or very good scoring chances as compared against total shots allowed in order to argue that general defensive ineptitude was a the cause of what statistically looks like mediocre performance.

This is possible but pretty much impossible to measure (unless you did goals per "scoring chance" but I suspect that the calculation of a "scoring chance" statistic would be as arbitrary from rink to rink as the 'hits " statistic so as to be not useful) . Anecdotally I saw no evidence that the Flames gave up more good scoring chances as a proportion of shots allowed than other teams but this is a subjective assessment with which you could easily disagree.

[Asher]

And I do. The amount of odd-man breaks the Flames gave up last season was surreal.