MLB - 2008 Season

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
I know you're a punkass lawyer and all, but don't put words in my mouth. I posted a simple observation and you, unbidden, launched into a whole sabermetric defense based on Soriano's career OF stats. I admit it was a mistake to respond to your overreaction.

Now you're defending hot-dogging, lack of effort and inattentive play as "how it is" today.

Do you even like baseball?

You can't even run away from your words. I got the implication right away, unfortunately for you. People have been saying Soriano's a crap defensive LF for years and you think you can say he was a butcher and then you can turn around and run away from it, claiming you only meant the last month since he's been hurt and I wouldn't catch it .

Ya, you were sorry you ran into a "punkass lawyer" because you got caught.

And the "simple observation" was false and you were called out on it. That's all.

I love the "unbidden" comment as well . Yeah, you didn't call someone "criminally unobservant" for having an "simple observation" or anything.


Hey, it's fine that you think "hot dogging, lack of effort, and inattentive play" are so bad, I'll just take Soriano or Manny Ramirez for my team if you don't want them.

And the childish "do you even like baseball"... of course, I'm just waiting for the "you like numbers more than the game" stuff now.

[EPW]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Fantasy, but probably pretty accurate..

http://www.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/feature/?fid=9221

Except that Josh Willingham hasn't played in over a month.

[SlowwHand]

Would you take him over these?

Name: Josh Willingham
Team: Florida
Rating: 100.15

Rank 2-15 2. Carlos Quentin Chicago White Sox 100.09
3. Pat Burrell Philadelphia 93.96
4. Matt Holliday Colorado 91.48
5. Ryan Braun Milwaukee 88.23
6. Jason Bay Pittsburgh 86.69

7. Alfonso Soriano Chicago Cubs 86.20

[SlowwHand]

Marlins' Willingham has herniated disk May 21

[Imran Siddiqui]

And before that:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7373

Marlins May 3: Placed outfielder Josh Willingham on the 15-day disabled list, retroactive to April 28

[-Jrabbit]

Look, this is all I said:

I can live with Soriano batting leadoff; I can even live with him in LF. But I can NOT abide him being out there in the 9th inning with a 1-run lead. Piniella has to come to terms with this.

You responded:

Um... why? From all I've read and seen, he appears to be a very good defensive LF. He has very good range compared to the ordinary LF.

To which I said:

He has a great arm.

But he is a butcher, he gets a bad jump, and with his physical ills, he can no longer outrun his mistakes. If you think he's a "very good defensive LF" you are criminally unobservant.

I stated very specifically that Soriano's physical problems are the issue. You say you "got the implication right away" -- meaning that you decided I was calling Soriano a bad overall ooutfielder. So, armed with your unfounded assumption, you set out to prove me "wrong" with in-depth pre-injury statistics.

Garbage in, garbage out.

So, you've shown me that Felix Pie should be back in the majors so the Cubs can better optimize late-inning defense. Well done. But I stand by my original observation.

[Oh, and thanks for the chuckle -- you calling me childish. ]

[Imran Siddiqui]

I stated very specifically that Soriano's physical problems are the issue. You say you "got the implication right away" -- meaning that you decided I was calling Soriano a bad overall ooutfielder. So, armed with your unfounded assumption, you set out to prove me "wrong" with in-depth pre-injury statistics.

Let's see that again...

But he is a butcher, he gets a bad jump, and with his physical ills, he can no longer outrun his mistakes. If you think he's a "very good defensive LF" you are criminally unobservant.

So he's a butcher and "can no longer outrun his mistakes". So he was a bad defensive LF but was able to outrun some of his mistakes (must have been some track star if he could outrun ALL of those mistakes to have numbers among the best in the game, huh?). In addition if someone thinks that he is a very good defensive LF, they are "criminally unobservant". Not, he may have been before, but isn't now... nope, "criminally unobservant"... because, after all, he's a butcher in the field.

In addition, what you ignored, probably on purpose is that the list of stats I posted from anothercubsblog is from THIS year (2008). You know, the season that Soriano had 52 ABs pre injury and 93 after injury? That's almost twice as much playing time AFTER injury than before?

So what explains the fact that his range numbers and zone rating numbers are among the league best? Were his pre injury numbers THAT amazing that he can be a horrid defensive LF according to you for almost twice the length of time that he was a good prior to his DL trip that his range factor is still slightly above average?

So, you've shown me that Felix Pie should be back in the majors so the Cubs can better optimize late-inning defense.

Isn't Pie the guy who people describe his defensive play in the same way they described how Soriano played defense, but Soriano was supposed to be horrible and Pie was supposed to be great?

[-Jrabbit]

Soriano is a converted infielder an it shows. He often breaks the wrong way. He never challenges a wall. And yes, when healthy, he did make up for his lack of experience and instincts with his speed. Which translates directly to range. Which is why I never called for Soriano to be benched late in games last year. Nor early this year.

Look, I get that calling you "criminally unobservant" was hyperbole and I'm sorry you took it so personally. But, in fact, I have observed the player in question on a consistent basis. You have not. I agree that there is nothing criminal about that.

But range and zone ratings are a substitute, nothing more. You regard these things as absolute proof of your rightness. I don't.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Range Factor and Zone Rating, as well as Fielding Runs Above Average and other defensive stats are facts, while "observed the player" are subjective. So yes, I consider them far more indictative of "rightness" than subjective observations by a fan. The numbers don't lie (especially not when you use multiple statistical measures) This is, btw, also the reason I consider Derek Jeter to be a substandard defensive SS, even though all the Yankee fans who watch every day think he's one of the best defensive SS in the game.

Speed doesn't make up that much... his range and zone rating and FRAA were great the last two years at LF. It was at least 0.2 higher than league average per 9 innings.

This year he has played nearly twice as much time after he came back from the DL than he did before. And his range factor, zone rating, etc, are all above average. Less than year's past, yes... but still not horrible.

[Ming]

And I continue to want to see the pre and post injury numbers. From a fans perspective, it doesn't seem like he has any range anymore. He doesn't charge the ball and is afraid of the wall.

And range factor to me isn't really indicative of what the name implies. The stat is simply put outs and assists divided by innings played. It's more a measure of opportunities than it is "range". Yes, his fielding percentage is good, but if you don't get near a ball, it's hard to call an error

While he has only had one official error so far this year, he has made many mental mistakes that just don't happen to show up in the box score. I grant you that the stats are "facts". But there are some things that just aren't measured by stats.

[-Jrabbit]

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
-Mark Twain

"The numbers don't lie."
Imran Siddiqui

[SlowwHand]

If statistics meant anything, then going by ACS would mean that half the world was comprised of gay scientists of some nature.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And range factor to me isn't really indicative of what the name implies. The stat is simply put outs and assists divided by innings played. It's more a measure of opportunities than it is "range".

How about Zone Rating then? Or Fielding Runs Above Average would show the value of a player, I'm sure.

[Ming]

The problem is, none of those stats measured the play in the first inning the other day vs the Pirates. A long hit to left field, which he didn't run very hard to get to.
It was a home run, but it sure looked like he could have gotten to the ball if he tried. The announcers both agreed that it should have been caught. Any fan watching the game saw that his lazy approach cost us. But that doesn't show up in the stats.

So yes, the stats are good indicators, but they don't take into account plays like the other night.

[Imran Siddiqui]

A home run that "should have been caught"? How many times do defenders take a ball that's a HR away? It isn't exactly common.