MLB - 2008 Season

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Ming
Big guys that can't play defense or run better hit.

True, as it's their only useful attribute. A glance at Thomas' performance over the past several seasons ought to be enough to demonstrate that he's a slow starter.

Thomas has been awful all year.

"All year" in mid-April? Seriously?

Sure, one might argue that the odds will work in his favor and that he would start to hit soon, but the Jays can't afford to wait.

The Blue Jays need to hit, and they probably won't hit enough. They've got great pitching and good defense. Releasing Thomas makes their problem - offense - worse.

The fact that he pulled a childish stunt by whining, and then not showing up just made him an easier target.

This is the part that is true - he made a stink b/c he saw the benching as an attempt to limit him to less than 300 PAs and thus avoid triggering the option for 2009. Whether or not he's right about that, he was wrong to act the way he did. It still strikes me as the sort of thing that could've been manageable...

It's not like Thomas has never whined about a contract situation before. The Jays chose to pay him (this old, slow, DH) $18 million over two years and they chose to give him a vesting option.

I can understand claiming that Toronto did what they had to do in a "make lemonade out of lemons" sort of way. But I maintain the organization doesn't have much of a plan, and tends to flail about and make odd decisions. To me, benching Thomas for sucking over 65 at-bats in April fits with a pattern of odd decision-making.

YMMV.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, it also appears that Toronto realizes that they will soon have a glut of OFers, due to young talent, and one of them will have to be DH... better a young stud than a 40, 41 yard old, who could break down at any time.

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well, it also appears that Toronto realizes that they will soon have a glut of OFers, due to young talent, and one of them will have to be DH... better a young stud than a 40, 41 yard old, who could break down at any time.

And which 4 are gonna be better than Thomas for the rest of the year?

Benching proven hitters, especially those with a track record of starting slow, in mid-April seems to me one of 2 things - Politics or Panic.

You didn't see Boston benching Ortiz (their slow non-fielder) who had worse stats than Thomas at the time. I am also willing to bet that if told he was gonna be benched and lose significant playing time for the entire season, he might have complained.

[Fistandantilus]

Actually Francona did bench Big Papi when he was in that big slump.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And Big Papi's response to the benching:

"You know, I'm just trying to figure things out for a minute so I can go back to being Big Papi again," said Ortiz. "You see this in baseball, a guy having a hard time, [the manager tells him to] go home, chill out, come back with a fresh mind. It happens to everybody. And I guess that's when managers know when they need to bring something like that to the table. I always do what Terry tells me to do. I'm an employee."

That'd be how you handle it.

[Arrian]

Ortiz was given a day off, and handled it well. Francona handled it well. "I just want to get you a night off, big guy. Clear your head. You're back in there tomorrow."

I don't think that's how it went down in Toronto. It appears they told Thomas his playing time going forward would be reduced. That's not a day off, and if you're Thomas, the logical reaction is to wonder whether it might, maybe, just possibly, have something to do with the $10 million option that vests in ~300 ABs.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

But now you are just speculating on what Thomas was told. Neither Thomas nor the manager said it was super contentious in that way.

And I think if you have Stairs, who is hitting really well against RHers, then Thomas had to be aware of a platoon possibility.

[Arrian]

That's true: I really don't know how it went down. I suspect, and that's the best I can do.

I agree that Stairs is a useful DH option. The thing is, at least until Lind comes up (and proves he can hit at the ML level), Stairs is their best LF option, so a DH platoon didn't make much sense yet.

Anyway, obviously they were looking at the option and didn't want it to vest. You seem to agree that was their motivation, since you said you think that was smart. I think it's smart to the extent that avoiding the consequences of a contract you wrote by hurting your team in the short-term in exchange for success in the longer term is smart. So it's smart, but only in that it is acceptance of a mistake.

It would be a bit like the Yankees releasing Farnsworth. Smart decision? Well yeah, until you consider that they're the geniuses who gave him 3 years/$17 million.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Stairs is their best LF option

I think they are still committed to having Shannon Stewart in the role, who is a better defensive LF than Stairs anyway.

So it's smart, but only in that it is acceptance of a mistake

So? Many smart moves are made because the GMs actually accept they've made a mistake instead of thinking everything is ok.

[Arrian]

I think they are still committed to having Shannon Stewart in the role, who is a better defensive LF than Stairs anyway.

Sure he is, but his bat died years ago.

So? Many smart moves are made because the GMs actually accept they've made a mistake instead of thinking everything is ok

A GM who is strong enough to admit a mistake and correct it deserves some points for that, but the original mistake still counts. So the contract given to Thomas still counts. Further, I think this incident fits well with a pattern: Gibbons getting into fights with his players. One incident? Ok, stuff happens. Two? Three?

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Sure he is, but his bat died years ago.

His OPS+ last season in Oakland was 101, which is around average. And they are only paying him $1,500,000.

the original mistake still counts

Every team/GM makes mistakes. Every single one.



Thomas is in Oakland now. Though I'm not sure how that's going to work, since they have Mike Sweeney at DH. Sweeney has had a good start to the season and is a pretty good hitter. He won't be replacing Darric Barton at 1B. It's like Thomas went into the platoon he was dreading.

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
But now you are just speculating on what Thomas was told. Neither Thomas nor the manager said it was super contentious in that way.

The Tigers were playing the Blue Jays when it happened. At least all the Tigers announcers and beat sportswriters reported that Thomas was told his playing time was going to be significantly reduced. Everyone gets a day off - no comparison.

[Deity Dude]

According to the AP:

Thomas will be the team’s new regular designated hitter just as he was while a catalyst in Oakland’s 2006 playoff run and AL West championship that year.

With Thomas playing regularly, Jack Cust will move to left field for the time being and Mike Sweeney will get more time at first base along with rookie Daric Barton. Barton had his first day off of the season Thursday.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
The Tigers were playing the Blue Jays when it happened. At least all the Tigers announcers and beat sportswriters reported that Thomas was told his playing time was going to be significantly reduced. Everyone gets a day off - no comparison.

That doesn't speak to the contentiousness of the discussion. Older players get playing time reduced... most of them don't refuse to even show up to the next game.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Mike Sweeney will get more time at first base along with rookie Daric Barton

Ouch. Poor, Barton. The guy was having a good season so far.