MLB - 2007 Season

[Arrian]

There was never an asterisk. It was simply listed as a separate record (and, frankly, I see the point of that. Different # of games).

Wiki:

Baseball commissioner Ford Frick announced that unless Ruth's record was broken in the first 154 games of the season, the new record would be shown in the record books as having been set in 162 games while the previous record set in 154 games would also be shown. It is an urban legend, probably invented by New York sportswriter Dick Young, that an asterisk would be used to distinguish the new record.

Steroid Era applies to many, many more ballplayers than Barry Bonds. I agree with the majority that believes he used. The trouble is that tons of guys used (including pitchers!), and Barry's (supposedly secret) positive test was for amphetamines, not steroids... and amphetamines have a long history in baseball. It seems to be widely acknowledged, for instance, that Hank Aaron used them.

Basically, all records from this era have to be viewed in the context of "steroid era." All of them.

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

The amusing thing is that the pitcher that Barry hit 756 had been suspended earlier in his career for steroid use.

[Arrian]

Not much outrage over him, huh? Or Juan Rincon. Or Neifi Perez .

The steroid era is a black mark on all MLB. Bonds is just one of the most visible signs of it. That Selig has been trying to act like he's innocent and Barry's the devil is pathetic. Nice try, Mr. Ostrich.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Not much outrage over him, huh? Or Juan Rincon. Or Neifi Perez .

are any of them about to be indicted for perjury?

Face it, MLB was in the dumps not that many years ago. It got a huge boost from the sudden emergence of a generation of new home run kings. They refocused on baseball folks whod been tuning baseball out. Its entirely understandable that folks are alot more focused on the foibles of said home run kings, than they are on those of pitchers casual fans have hardly heard of, and non-fans have never heard of.

And yeah, its the association with steroids that gets people riled up about Bonds, not amphetamine usage, AFAICT.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
There was never an asterisk. It was simply listed as a
Basically, all records from this era have to be viewed in the context of "steroid era." All of them.

-Arrian

Not all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cal_Ripken,_Jr.

[Arrian]

Steroids are primarily useful for speeding up recovery time. That is, essentially, healing. Being able to get back on the field (which is why they're useful for relief pitchers). I have no reason to believe that Cal Ripken used them, but it is not impossible.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


are any of them about to be indicted for perjury?

Face it, MLB was in the dumps not that many years ago. It got a huge boost from the sudden emergence of a generation of new home run kings. They refocused on baseball folks whod been tuning baseball out. Its entirely understandable that folks are alot more focused on the foibles of said home run kings, than they are on those of pitchers casual fans have hardly heard of, and non-fans have never heard of.

And yeah, its the association with steroids that gets people riled up about Bonds, not amphetamine usage, AFAICT.

I know that people are riled about the use of steroids and care less about amphetamines... that was part of my point. Both are performance enhancers. Players used amphetamines for decades, going back into Aaron's time. So those are kinda ignored (by many fans).

I'm not saying people aren't entitled to dislike Barry Bonds, or the steroid era in general. Put me down for both, actually.

As for perjury, if he perjured himself, by all means charge him, try him, convict him. If they can't, they should STFU already. Note, however, that the investigation that has focused on Bonds has focused on him for precisely the same reason so many fans do: nobody likes him, he's the HR king (or was about to become the king), and he would therefore make a great example. I wonder how much effort they put into investigating Juan Rincon or the other less accomplished players who have actually tested positive?

-Arrian

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by Arrian
Not much outrage over him, huh? Or Juan Rincon. Or Neifi Perez .

The steroid era is a black mark on all MLB. Bonds is just one of the most visible signs of it. That Selig has been trying to act like he's innocent and Barry's the devil is pathetic. Nice try, Mr. Ostrich.

-Arrian

Why u have to be racist, Aryan?



No, but seriously, I actually had a conversation with my freshman college roommate, who was/is black, when I used the term "black market"

[Arrian]

Yeah, I actually paused while typing that.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

want rincon caught well after the Balco scandal? After the testimony in which Bonds may have perjured himself? If you arent involved testimony, youre not liable for perjury. (Bill clinton, yadda yadda)

As for the indictment taking long, IIUC there was a long dispute about the admissibility of certain evidence, about some guy involved refusing to testify, etc. I dont think the prosecution has been deliberately hanging Bonds out to dry.

[Arrian]

OMG, is it true they played the theme song from The Natural as Bonds circled the bases?

I didn't see it, but one of the descriptions I read mentioned that. If so... Farce.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
want rincon caught well after the Balco scandal? After the testimony in which Bonds may have perjured himself? If you arent involved testimony, youre not liable for perjury. (Bill clinton, yadda yadda)

As for the indictment taking long, IIUC there was a long dispute about the admissibility of certain evidence, about some guy involved refusing to testify, etc. I dont think the prosecution has been deliberately hanging Bonds out to dry.

You're missing my point. I'm not arguing that Bonds didn't commit perjury, or that he shouldn't be punished, or that he's a good guy.

I'm saying that the feds/MLB have focused on Bonds at least in part because of his high profile.

Obviously, the testimony was in the BALCO investigation, and thus only BALCO clients would be have to testify. I don't think Rincon was a BALCO client, so obviously he couldn't have perjured himself.

That's not really the point. The anger we're talking about is over steroid use, not perjury. Bonds used, though it has been difficult to prove. Rincon used, was nailed in the testing, and nobody gives a ****. That was my (rather simple, I thought) point. The outrage is tied to the skill of the player, not really to the useage of 'roids. And of course there are lots of players (hundreds, probably) who used and were never caught.

-Arrian

[Lord Avalon]

*

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Steroids are primarily useful for speeding up recovery time. That is, essentially, healing. Being able to get back on the field (which is why they're useful for relief pitchers). I have no reason to believe that Cal Ripken used them, but it is not impossible.

-Arrian

if he did use them, and then went on to say what he did, to wit

'"I don't know to what extent [steroids] worked ... " Ripken said. "But if all your numbers are produced by those sorts of means, then I say, 'Yeah, they are artificial numbers.' "

Not exactly a headline-grabber, but Ripken also showed some contempt for the steroids era, albeit adding in his own positive spin.

"I think we all were very disappointed that steroids came flying out into the game of baseball; the integrity of the game was in question," he said. "Then there was good reaction on the side of Major League Baseball and the players association to put these policies in place to help restore the integrity of the game. I am very happy it is moving in that direction."'

then he is really a more massive liar and hypocrite than most.

Im not willing to believe that.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Not all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cal_Ripken,_Jr.

I'm not sold that Ripken didn't use amphetamines, which has been used to get you "up" for every game. Definitely a performance enhancer and definitely everywhere during Ripken's career (Hell, it was everywhere during Aaron's and it seems VERY likely that he used, by sucking down "red juice").