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  • Now, in some cases you have a point - the Crusaders would have found some excuse to do what they did, absent Christianity. But that doesn't mean that the Church is anywhere near blameless for the Crusades.
    Well that is a very good question. The destruction of the church of the holy sepulchre and the capture of Nicaea is certainly a casus belli. First crusade started in Constantinople to recapture Byzantine lands at the request of the emperor.

    Now, granted the Crusaders were not perfect, but I don't believe the response of the west was unjustified.
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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    • Originally posted by David Floyd View Post
      You might pray WITH your buddy Peter, but not TO him.
      That's actually exactly what Catholicism teaches. We ask the saints to intercede on our behalf, and join us in our prayers to God. Many Catholics ignore the distinction, but the Church doesn't.
      John Brown did nothing wrong.

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      • Felch,

        It's absolutely possible that someone can hold an attitude of racial supremacy, and not go on a killing spree. The ideology doesn't kill people, the SS kills people. If you insist on arguing that an idea can kill, then you're obviously speaking in different terms than I am. I'm talking about actually killing people, and you're talking about giving someone an excuse to kill.
        Ideas and ideologies often enable killing, whether that killing is done in the name of God or the name of racial purity. Ideologies create, or at least can create, an atmosphere of "groupthink". Yes, technically speaking you are accurate - only people kill, not ideologies. I'm just saying that some ideologies are better than others at fostering or justifying killing sprees.

        Unless you think a Buddhist is just as likely to fly a plane into a building as a Muslim Jihadist?

        BK,

        It implies that sin is plural, ie, the wages, not the wage of sin is death. Death is the wage of sin in aggregate, which says nothing about whether certain sins are worse than others.
        That's interesting, because the "wage" of the first sin of Adam and Eve (eating from the tree or in a larger sense disobedience to God) was death. There wasn't an aggregate. It was one sin and out.
        Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
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        • Bull****. You don't pray to your buddy Peter when you're sick. You might pray WITH your buddy Peter, but not TO him.
          And that is precisely what Catholics do. You don't understand the communion of saints. We do not pray to the saints, we pray with them. You've been misinformed.

          However, Catholics pray directly to saints.
          No, we don't.

          "St. Peter, pray for us, St. Paul, pray for us. St. Mary, pray for us, St. Joseph, pray for us, etc. etc. etc."

          Additionally, if your justification is as weak as what you posted, that would imply that you can pray to/with anyone you think might be in heaven, right?
          Certainly. Any of the departed who are with the Lord.
          Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
          "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
          2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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          • That's interesting, because the "wage" of the first sin of Adam and Eve (eating from the tree or in a larger sense disobedience to God) was death. There wasn't an aggregate. It was one sin and out.
            Exactly correct. We have since added a multiplicity of sins onto the original sin which we bear.
            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
            2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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            • Well that is a very good question. The destruction of the church of the holy sepulchre and the capture of Nicaea is certainly a casus belli. First crusade started in Constantinople to recapture Byzantine lands at the request of the emperor.
              Oh certainly. But I'm talking more about the acts of the Crusaders themselves, as they raped, looted, and pillaged their way across the countryside.

              Felch,

              Praying to Peter to intercede on your behalf is still praying to someone other than God, as well as being logically the same as praying to your dead grandparents.
              Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
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              • Originally posted by David Floyd View Post
                Ideas and ideologies often enable killing, whether that killing is done in the name of God or the name of racial purity. Ideologies create, or at least can create, an atmosphere of "groupthink". Yes, technically speaking you are accurate - only people kill, not ideologies. I'm just saying that some ideologies are better than others at fostering or justifying killing sprees.
                Some ideologies attempt to justify compulsion, but considering that I highlighted compulsion as the common error, I think we can agree that we've gone full circle

                Unless you think a Buddhist is just as likely to fly a plane into a building as a Muslim Jihadist?
                Maybe not a building, but certainly an aircraft carrier.
                John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                • That last one is kind of a silly argument, since the justifying ideology was a bastardized form of Bushido rather than Buddhism.

                  I thought it was funny though, so I tossed it in.
                  John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                  • Exactly correct. We have since added a multiplicity of sins onto the original sin which we bear.
                    Wrong again. I'm talking about the wages of the one original sin, and who bore the wages of that one sin. The first time Adam and Eve sinned, they were punished with eventual death, which would have come whether they ever sinned again or not.

                    As for praying to the saints, I'll stipulate that you know more about it than I do. It just seems pretty ridiculous to me.
                    Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
                    Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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                    • That last one is kind of a silly argument, since the justifying ideology was a bastardized form of Bushido rather than Buddhism.
                      Saved me the trouble
                      Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
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                      • Originally posted by Felch View Post
                        Isn't that the case with just about every law? We make it a crime to rob people, because we assume that thieves are morally bankrupt.
                        Yes, but no.
                        I think I understand what you mean, but let me nevertheless answer on what you write (I hope different of what you mean).
                        If stealing or killing were only immoral (with no harm to anybody) they should not be forbidden in a secular state. Problem with stealing and killing is that they are not only immoral, but harmful.
                        A secular state has no business in morality, but has full authority in protecting people from harm.
                        Eating pork or being gay might be immoral to some people, but it doesn't harm anybody - except the pork, of course. Therefore, a secular society should have no law about those topics.

                        Originally posted by Felch View Post
                        While you view abortion as similar to amputation, I view it as a form of child abuse. The government doesn't stand idly by and allow parents to have unrestricted power over their children. We forbid abuse and neglect because children are not merely a parent's body part, but are separate human beings. It's a matter of perception, but perceiving a fetus as being distinct from the mother is hardly a retrograde notion. Rather, it's an acknowledgement that the fetus is a distinct person, with its own genetic material, and senescence. Considering genetics and organismal senescence, you'd be hard pressed to prove to me that a fetus is just another body part of the mother.
                        Yes, the whole point around abortion is how much a 'person' is a fetus?
                        Is an ovary a fetus? Half a fetus? A person?
                        Is a condom a weapon of mass destruction? (That would be the position of Vatican, as they ban masturbation and preservatives).
                        Is a 2 cell egg a person? 4 cells? 1 million cells?
                        Nobody has those answers. Yet the legislator has to draw a line somewhere. But where?
                        For some people, the soul is there, right at conception; so even a 1 cell egg is a 'person'. For other people, the 'soul' is slowly built with time, for others, there is no such thing as a 'soul', for other, we, humans are all one soul.
                        Who is correct?
                        And, is having a 'soul' required for being a person?
                        Is the christian view correct? The pantheist view? The atheist view?
                        Many christians claims their view is the only valid one (one cell egg = a person). And that aborting a birth process (to stop it before it is completed) is murder.

                        Majority of people however say it needs more than one cell for an egg to be a 'person'. But they probably disagree on how many are needed.
                        And law has to draw a line.

                        So, yes, the law draws an upper limit when a group of cells becomes a 'person'. And, yes, it hurts the convictions of some, who sincerely believe the limit is too high, even one cell should be a 'person'.

                        Now, if you ask me, where is my limit, I would have a hard time telling. I certainly have no problem with aborting the process of human life for a group of 4 cells, but I would have a real problem having to decide on a precise number of weeks or months.
                        As far as I know, law has made his (her?) decision based on what science knows about the life process (viability, reactions, independence, ...).
                        And I agree that relying upon science to make a decision is the best way we have.
                        Might not be 'moral', but it is the least subjective one.
                        The books that the world calls immoral are the books that show the world its own shame. Oscar Wilde.

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                        • "St. Peter, pray for us, St. Paul, pray for us. St. Mary, pray for us, St. Joseph, pray for us, etc. etc. etc."


                          That's what most people call 'praying'
                          Not to mention of course that we can go directly to the father, why would we ask other mortal people (who already died) to pray for us?
                          Jesus says that we can ask the father in his name, and it will be given to you. What more can Peter, Paul, etc. give us? Apart from the fact that they're dead of course and are not able to hear you anyway. (or are the saints also omnipresent?)
                          Formerly known as "CyberShy"
                          Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori

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                          • Well that is a very good question. The destruction of the church of the holy sepulchre and the capture of Nicaea is certainly a casus belli. First crusade started in Constantinople to recapture Byzantine lands at the request of the emperor.
                            It might also be worth asking why the First Crusade was in all actuality focused on Jerusalem, which had not been in Byzantine hands in centuries, and why it wasn't turned over to the Byzantines after it was taken.
                            Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
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                            • The Supreme Court is not a moral authority. It is not a scientific authority. It is a Constitutional authority. When the Supreme Court makes a decision it is supposed to be based on the law. If the law supports slavery, then you wind up with a decision like Dred Scott. If it makes a decision about abortion, it is a legal decision, not a moral one. It is up to the people to be better than their laws, and to improve the laws of the past so that they mesh with a moral decision, like we did with slavery.
                              I wouldn't quite say this.

                              The supreme court is a moral authority in that it upholds the rule of law. The problem for any society is when the rule of law sanctions injustice and the conflict between the two. Slavery was one such conflict, and the eventual resolution was the 14th amendment. The law, the constitution are not perfect, insofar it is silent about things which were not bothersome 300 years ago, and the fact that it was made by men.

                              What I am arguing is for an extension of the 14th amendment to recognise the humanity of the unborn child, and their rights and obligations to the rest of society. I believe that we have encountered another such injustice to the unborn by which they are executed for not further crime than their conception. 300 years ago this was not a problem, and now it has become very similar to the slavery issue in both the division of the nation and the people. My hope is that the unjust law entrenched in the courts can be resolved through peaceful means.

                              This is the problem in this thread, because it represents a fraying of the general truce. I worry whether it will hold or burst, and I do not know how long we have while this is still our decision.
                              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                              2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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                              • It might also be worth asking why the First Crusade was in all actuality focused on Jerusalem, which had not been in Byzantine hands in centuries, and why it wasn't turned over to the Byzantines after it was taken.
                                The latter is the better question. I wouldn't say Jerusalem was the ultimate goal of the first crusade, rather it was Antioch. And they did eventually turn over Antioch to the Byzantines.

                                To me, it is unfortunate that the egos of the crusaders got in the middle of everything and made a hash of a mission that could have restored the Byzantines.
                                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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