Pro-Life Activist Gunned Down in Michigan

[OzzyKP]

Felch.

[Elok]

I more or less agree completely with Felch (I say "more or less" for hedge room; it's late and I haven't read everything he wrote in great detail). No basing laws on worthlessly vague notions of "personhood"!

A fetus is a potential human, a future human, a human-to-be. But not a person yet.
And yes, there is a f*ing fuzzy line of where that 'human-to-be' becomes a human.
The 'abortion' concept is precisely to abort, stop the process before the group of cells becomes a human child.

I'm continually amazed by people's inability to see the massive doublethink inherent in this point of view. "It's not a child, it's a potential child! Now quick, get rid of it before it becomes a child!"

[Robert]

Why do we ask each other to pray for us? Because all prayer is good and a blessing. It's like asking whether you'd accept blessings from God, or blessings from your friends?

Good point

As for the saints, they are alive in heaven. You recall the transfiguration? Christ is a God not of dead men but of the living. The saints are alive with him in heaven. Go ahead and ask St. Mary for a blessing, and she'll be happy to help you!

I'm not really sure where they are. I believe in the ressurection of the dead, but I'm not sure if that happens immediately when they die or only later, when Jesus returns. I think there's more into the latter then in the first.
But even if they are in heaven right now, like you say, then I doubt that they hear you. Well, I don't doubt it, I'm sure they don't. They're still not omnipresent.

Not to mention of course that talking with spirits is more related to occultism then to faith. Ask Saul who talked to Samuel.

[Robert]

A fetus is a potential human, a future human, a human-to-be. But not a person yet.
And yes, there is a f*ing fuzzy line of where that 'human-to-be' becomes a human.
The 'abortion' concept is precisely to abort, stop the process before the group of cells becomes a human child.

A child is a potential adult, can we kill it before it comes one?
Of course not, because we think that killing children is not ok.
So why is killing a fetus ok to you? Only because it's not a human yet?

Why is it not a human?
I'd say that being a fetus is the first step into humanship.We've all been a fetus one day, living in our mothers uterus.
I think that the only reason people say that a fetus is not a human is because that's the only way they can kill it.
It's making something morally right in your head.

It's like the age of slavery when people thought it was ok to enslave black people, because black people weren't human.
It's an ancient old trick. First say that the person you want to kill is not a real person, and then kill him.

In a couple of hundreds years we'll look back at abortion like we look back at slavery now. A black page in the history of man.

[Ben Kenobi]

But even if they are in heaven right now, like you say, then I doubt that they hear you. Well, I don't doubt it, I'm sure they don't. They're still not omnipresent.

I'm not arguing they are omnipresent. I am arguing that they can hear you. I'm also arguing they can even come down to earth as they did during the transfiguration. How it works, I don't know. I know God can hear you, perhaps God makes it so that the saint in heaven can hear prayer requests.

Not to mention of course that talking with spirits is more related to occultism then to faith. Ask Saul who talked to Samuel.

Yet the holy spirit is in you. You don't really talk to them, you pray with them.

[Robert]

I'm not arguing they are omnipresent. I am arguing that they can hear you. I'm also arguing they can even come down to earth as they did during the transfiguration. How it works, I don't know. I know God can hear you, perhaps God makes it so that the saint in heaven can hear prayer requests.

Where did you get this from?
It's all made up stuff by people. Why do you believe what people say?

Yet the holy spirit is in you. You don't really talk to them, you pray with them.

"St Mary, pray for me" sounds like you're talking to them.
It's a bit like the heathens, they also talk to their 'fathers' who are gone. Not to mention that many saints are known from the pre-christian heathen world, and are just merged into catholicism to spread the faith. (like christmas, you know)
It's heathen influence to the catholic church.

I wish that you guys would only accept sola scriptura, which is in the end the only difference between catholicism and protestantism.

[Ben Kenobi]

Where did you get this from?

Communion of saints? It's been the doctrine of the church from Christ onwards.

It's all made up stuff by people. Why do you believe what people say?

The whole concept of 'sleep in death', etc from Luther has no basis either in scripture or in Christian tradition. Do you not recall where Christ tells the thief on the cross, "today, you will be with me in paradise!" It is no more 'made up' than scripture.

It's a bit like the heathens, they also talk to their 'fathers' who are gone.

They are not gone. Again, Christ is very clear. They are alive and they are with him. If you want to disagree with Christ, go right ahead.

Not to mention that many saints are known from the pre-christian heathen world, and are just merged into catholicism to spread the faith. (like christmas, you know)

What, 'Christ's mass?". When do you celebrate the nativity? How long do you believe that it's been a Christian festival?

I wish that you guys would only accept sola scriptura, which is in the end the only difference between catholicism and protestantism.

Well lets see.

1. Luther dismembered the bible and removed books that he didn't like. It would be no more right to accept Luther than to accept a mutilated 'Word of God'.

2. Sola scriptura isn't biblical. Scripture is very clear on this point, that scripture is the inspired word of God and that interpretation is required in order to reach a properly informed conscience. Every protestant has two books on his shelf, a bible and his concordance. Scripture AND tradition.

3. The fact that everyone is entitled to their own private interpretation means that no two protestants truly believe in the same gospel and the same bible. Everyone has their own blind spots.

4. The fact that when the church no longer teaches what you like, you simply leave is the wrong idea of what a church ought to be. There are not many churches, but one Church, just as there is only one Christ with his one head.

You are right, that we were not meant to be apart. You are wrong that we should accept the errors of the reformers.

I am sad that you believe the communion of saints which has been Christian doctrine for far longer than any form of protestantism is of heathen influence. I hope you can open your eyes one day and see the Church for what she is the bride of Christ.

[Jon Miller]

You are putting a lot into the existence of a comma.

"I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise."
"I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."

I don't know the original greek, but it doesn't seem to be something to base doctrine on when we have all sorts of other words of Christ (and others) that say that those who are dead are sleeping.

JM
(I Didn't mean to respond to BK)

[Dry]

People read the Bible and walk away with different lessons. The Tree of Knowledge didn't make people amoral, it gave them the Knowledge to make moral decisions.

Disagree.
The Tree of Knowledge gives us the knowledge of what is wrong and what is right. You'd be like God. And according to the Bible this is a sin. And it deserves death. This desire to be like God, and the godly punishment will come again in the Babel Tower story.

Christians disagree about: do we have that knowledge now or don't we? Is the knowledge enough to make the right decision? Left on our own, are we even capable of making the 'good' decision?
While most of those I know would say, yes, we have the knowledge now, they would also say that we nevertheless do NOT make the right decision.
So either we missed something from that tree (after all we took only a bite), or it is the tree of Knowledge, and not the Tree of Decision.
Quite a lot of christian will even say that left alone, we are more likely to make the bad choice.

Okay, if humans are at the center, how does that make abortion okay? We are talking about aborting humans, right?

It doesn't, no more than it make war okay, or death penalty okay. It makes okay to give responsability, decision about abortion in human hands, as opposed to godly hands.
For many humanists, the bible is an immoral book - slavery, stoning,... - and decisions about morality should NOT be based on the commands [insert here dawkinians adjectives] god.

It's not "claiming moral high ground," it's expanding the definition of human to an extent you disagree with, and applying our understanding of human rights to those people. It's not like we're a bunch of old bible thumpers trying to put an end to rock and roll. We're interested in human rights, and we regard fetuses as humans.

Okay, let us talk about real situation.
Most abortions here in Belgium are performed for muslim teenage girls. And number are rising.
The reason?
Well if you have lived among religious people, you should know. For religious parents, your daughter is not supposed to have sexual relations before mariage, therefore the pill is useless, it is even an 'encouragement' to have sex, and therefore is forbidden.
So, no contraception for muslim girls.
But what happen when for whatever reason, they do have sex before mariage and oops, there is some dude in there?
3 cases.
a) The least likely case. No or very few consequences. Parents are sad, ashamed, the girls is midly 'punished'. This almost never happens, because even if the parents are loving enough of their daughter, the community is without pity and instead of sharing the shame with the girl, most families prefer to 'sacrifice' her for the honor.
b) The middle case. The most likely. Punishment. The girl is removed from society, often becoming an almost slave to her family; she might be sent back to some muslim country, forced married as 4th bride to some guy that will treat her as a slave (after all she is an immoral girl, so he has every right to treat her as he wants).
c) The worst case. She is killed in some honor killing by her own brother, cousin,... This does not happen a lot, but it happens. Enough to worry the authorities.

Now, you are a doctor and some muslim girl come with that 'problem'.
Case a you know will not happen. Not in the muslim community. If any girl was in that situation, she wouldn't be here, at the hospital.
Case b is most likely to happen. Mother and child - if he is kept at all - are most likely to become quasi-slaves. Removed from school, society, sight, isolated, banished.
Case c has a non null probability to happen, and I am sure most girls coming to the hospital are really afraid it will happen to them.
What is your morality about life being sacred, about Give me freedom or give me death, about life not being only breathing, but also being about quality of life, relationships between beings, telling you?
Can you tell these girls what is 'best', what is 'good' for her and her child?
Is life better than shame, exclusion from community, freedom?
I can't.
I don't feel like I have the right to tell them how they should handle this, to claim my morality is superior here. I can't tell them: live and be damned you and your child, because your community are asses.
I let these girls that choice, for them and for their children: Freedom or death. Life (quality) or life (simply breathing).

[Dry]

A child is a potential adult, can we kill it before it comes one?
Of course not, because we think that killing children is not ok.
So why is killing a fetus ok to you? Only because it's not a human yet?

Is a sperm not a human yet?
Do we have the right to kill it?

Why is it not a human?

And who has the ultimate definition of a human?
Have you?
I don't.
I there an ultimate definition of human?
Do you believe in absolutes?

I'd say that being a fetus is the first step into humanship.We've all been a fetus one day, living in our mothers uterus.
I think that the only reason people say that a fetus is not a human is because that's the only way they can kill it.

What you do here is a 'sin' to me.
You put things in my head that I do not have. You put purposes, intend that I do not have.
Do not put words in the mouth of others, do not put thoughts, intend in the head of others, and do not put feeling or absence of feeling in the heart of other.
Yeah, the is the only way we can kill it, surely because we enjoy that. Abortion, lot of fun.

It's making something morally right in your head.

My morality includes life and happiness and freedom. When life conflicts with happiness or freedom, I do not have out-of-the-box answers. I do not tell others what my or some absolute law tells. Each case is different and each case has a different answer.
Yes, that is part of my morality.

It's like the age of slavery when people thought it was ok to enslave black people, because black people weren't human.
It's an ancient old trick. First say that the person you want to kill is not a real person, and then kill him.

Oh, my! Yes, you got me here. I like to kill. Especially babies.
This is my sole and only motivation.

In a couple of hundreds years we'll look back at abortion like we look back at slavery now. A black page in the history of man.

In a couple of hundreds years, I am afraid we will still have people who will tell others they should survive instead of live, who will pretend they have answers to other's problem, who will put others in impossible situations and then punish them for their unability to get out of those situations.

[Felch]

I wish that you guys would only accept sola scriptura, which is in the end the only difference between catholicism and protestantism.

Where in scriptures do they advocate sola scriptura?

[Felch]

Disagree.
The Tree of Knowledge gives us the knowledge of what is wrong and what is right. You'd be like God. And according to the Bible this is a sin. And it deserves death. This desire to be like God, and the godly punishment will come again in the Babel Tower story.

Christians disagree about: do we have that knowledge now or don't we? Is the knowledge enough to make the right decision? Left on our own, are we even capable of making the 'good' decision?
While most of those I know would say, yes, we have the knowledge now, they would also say that we nevertheless do NOT make the right decision.
So either we missed something from that tree (after all we took only a bite), or it is the tree of Knowledge, and not the Tree of Decision.
Quite a lot of christian will even say that left alone, we are more likely to make the bad choice.

Well, what can I say? You're set in your opinion on this, and I think that your opinion is wrong. Orthodox/Catholic teaching on this is completely different from what you're saying. The Church teaches that we are capable of making moral decisions (after we've matured a bit), and we are responsible for the choices we make. If Protestants disagree that is because they are a disagreeable bunch.

It doesn't, no more than it make war okay, or death penalty okay. It makes okay to give responsability, decision about abortion in human hands, as opposed to godly hands.
For many humanists, the bible is an immoral book - slavery, stoning,... - and decisions about morality should NOT be based on the commands [insert here dawkinians adjectives] god.

I really don't care about humanism. It sounds like a pretty lazy philosophy, since all it amounts to is "make up your own mind." Morals aren't individual, they are absolute. Things are either good or evil, and that's all there is to it. People have the ability to make moral decisions, on that we agree. So let's leave it at that.

Okay, let us talk about real situation.
Most abortions here in Belgium are performed for muslim teenage girls. And number are rising.
The reason?
Well if you have lived among religious people, you should know. For religious parents, your daughter is not supposed to have sexual relations before mariage, therefore the pill is useless, it is even an 'encouragement' to have sex, and therefore is forbidden.
So, no contraception for muslim girls.
But what happen when for whatever reason, they do have sex before mariage and oops, there is some dude in there?
3 cases.
a) The least likely case. No or very few consequences. Parents are sad, ashamed, the girls is midly 'punished'. This almost never happens, because even if the parents are loving enough of their daughter, the community is without pity and instead of sharing the shame with the girl, most families prefer to 'sacrifice' her for the honor.
b) The middle case. The most likely. Punishment. The girl is removed from society, often becoming an almost slave to her family; she might be sent back to some muslim country, forced married as 4th bride to some guy that will treat her as a slave (after all she is an immoral girl, so he has every right to treat her as he wants).
c) The worst case. She is killed in some honor killing by her own brother, cousin,... This does not happen a lot, but it happens. Enough to worry the authorities.

Now, you are a doctor and some muslim girl come with that 'problem'.
Case a you know will not happen. Not in the muslim community. If any girl was in that situation, she wouldn't be here, at the hospital.
Case b is most likely to happen. Mother and child - if he is kept at all - are most likely to become quasi-slaves. Removed from school, society, sight, isolated, banished.
Case c has a non null probability to happen, and I am sure most girls coming to the hospital are really afraid it will happen to them.
What is your morality about life being sacred, about Give me freedom or give me death, about life not being only breathing, but also being about quality of life, relationships between beings, telling you?
Can you tell these girls what is 'best', what is 'good' for her and her child?
Is life better than shame, exclusion from community, freedom?
I can't.
I don't feel like I have the right to tell them how they should handle this, to claim my morality is superior here. I can't tell them: live and be damned you and your child, because your community are asses.
I let these girls that choice, for them and for their children: Freedom or death. Life (quality) or life (simply breathing).

The problem is Islam. End Islam, and the problem goes away.

[rah]

Listening to you guys I could say the same about Catholics. You're forcing your moral opinion on everyone just the same way. You tell women they can't use contraceptives and can't have abortions. What's the difference?

You even said your stance was based on " and we regard fetuses as humans." regard doesn't make it a universal truth, just an opinion. How does this make you any different then those you condemn?

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I am not conceited enough to say what is my opinion is absolute truth making anyone that thinks differently wrong. Feel free to advertise your opinion BUT don't you dare force it on people that believe differently.
Or you are no better than ISLAM.

[Lorizael]

Listening to you guys I could say the same about Catholics. You're forcing your moral opinion on everyone just the same way. You tell women they can't use contraceptives and can't have abortions. What's the difference?

You even said your stance was based on " and we regard fetuses as humans." regard doesn't make it a universal truth, just an opinion. How does this make you any different then those you condemn?

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I am not conceited enough to say what is my opinion is absolute truth making anyone that thinks differently wrong. Feel free to advertise your opinion BUT don't you dare force it on people that believe differently.
Or you are no better than ISLAM.

This moral relativism doesn't become you, rah. There are plenty of other issues about which you have very firm opinions. Why, on this one, do you pretend to lack conviction?

[Felch]

Catholicism isn't forced on anyone, anymore.

I say that I regard a fetus as human because it is human. You're arguing that point. Is there any scientific evidence that you can bring forward to prove that a human fetus is not human? Or is it just your opinion that a fetus produced by two humans is a different species?

So far, I haven't said anything at all in favor of forcing my opinion on others. In fact, quite the opposite. I've said that compulsion is the common error that the Crusaders and the NKVD shared. I've also said that I regard the criminalization of abortion as being unhelpful.