One nazi less?

[Provost Harrison]

It does matter for how we choose to defeat Trumpism. Using the tools that were used to defeat the Axis fascists would be catastrophically stupid. Franco's quasi-fascist regime ended because Franco died. Portugals Carnation revolution may have been peaceful, but it was still a military coup.

Labelling Trump as fascist is far more likely to lead to stupid and perversely counterproductive responses than to help oust Trump. Hard work will likely be needed to defeat Trump and most of that work will be undermined by people imagining that the remedies won't work against "fascists" and instead put their energies into quixotic campaigns to defeat the Trump "fascist" regime which will, perversely help keep him in power and probably help place a like-minded successor in power in 2028.

When did Franco or Salazar come to power in those countries and when did they die? 1930s to 1970s...40 years. Think carefully about what you propose.

[Geronimo]

When did Franco or Salazar come to power in those countries and when did they die? 1930s to 1970s...40 years. Think carefully about what you propose.

you misunderstood me completely. I'm saying that is why opposing Trump as a fascist leader is fraught with risk. the tools used to defeat fascism are terribly ill-suited for defeating Trumpism. Lorizael has been dismissing focus on Trump's signs of failure at goals that fascism easily achieved but this understanding is actually crucial not just for dismissing the notion of Trump as a fascist leader but also recognizing the real weaknesses in his hold on power that could defeat him and his movement.

[Elok]

Most probably (IMO), Trump will defeat Trump. As I think I've said already in this thread, he has survived as long as he has, in spite of astonishing incompetence, by being persistently thwarted, so that his worst ideas have never really been tested. That's about to change. He has "drained the swamp," the executive branch is full of his creatures, and now he's hard at work scaring the hell out of all the illegal immigrants. To date, this has only been one more ogre-like thing he does, because in the last analysis most of us don't really care about Mexicans all that much. Certainly not enough to get off the couch. We do, however, care about all the stuff illegal immigrants do, like provide us with all kinds of low-cost food and sundry services. At the same time, Trump is slowly adding on tariffs (when he doesn't chicken out), and imposing a ruinous fine on new H-1B visas. Probably there's more stupidity in the works, and having scared off or imprisoned all those illegals, he may find it difficult to lure them back--not that he would try. Most likely he'll propose (or god help us, actually enact) more subsidies and rebate checks for relief, since he has no imagination. And I don't think many of us are interested in picking fruit for long hours at crap wages. I know I'm not.

The bad news is that all that together is (in all likelihood) going to add up to one hellacious economic shock. We are all going to be, in real terms, significantly poorer. The good news is that it will be difficult for Trump to escape blame for it, and the Biden administration has already shown us how today's Americans react to inflation. I expect he will have pissed off a majority of the electorate in a serious way just in time for midterms. With any luck, this will deal a serious blow to the credibility and appeal of MAGA in general. If it doesn't, well, he can get good and impeached as everybody hurries to distance themselves at max speed from him, his policies, and his cooties in general.

Alternately, I guess he could be thwarted just enough that he holds on until he does some other stupid thing, IDK. But that's my prediction, in the near term, for what it's worth.

[EPW]

Elok and Geronimo are right, there's nothing at all fascist about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/illinois/co...ts_the/?utm_so

[Geronimo]

Elok and Geronimo are right, there's nothing at all fascist about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/illinois/co...ts_the/?utm_so

yeah. conjures up images of the gas chambers all over again.

[EPW]

Yes, it does.

[Provost Harrison]

yeah. conjures up images of the gas chambers all over again.

Are you for real? Letting your halo slip a bit with that comment.

[Geronimo]

Following your reactions, I watched it again in case I quit to early. This is the most fascist clip you've got? don't you have any extrajudicial killings like fascists were proud to admit performing on an industrial scale? I didn't say this was an acceptable tactic for an arrest of an unarmed presumably nonviolent offender. But there's *nothing* at all fascist about it. It's more and more clear that your working definition is fascist = authoritarian.

Actually, I watched it a third time and it seems obvious that the commentor was in on it or edited in their commentary later. It's obvious that the black car would not have been in the accident if they remained at the curb and it makes more sense if we assume that they moved to ram the ice vehicle and the recorder was an accomplice.

[Provost Harrison]

Following your reactions, I watched it again in case I quit to early. This is the most fascist clip you've got? don't you have any extrajudicial killings like fascists were proud to admit performing on an industrial scale? I didn't say this was an acceptable tactic for an arrest of an unarmed presumably nonviolent offender. But there's *nothing* at all fascist about it. It's more and more clear that your working definition is fascist = authoritarian.

Actually, I watched it a third time and it seems obvious that the commentor was in on it or edited in their commentary later. It's obvious that the black car would not have been in the accident if they remained at the curb and it makes more sense if we assume that they moved to ram the ice vehicle and the recorder was an accomplice.

Do you get some sort of kick out of being so obtuse? Just curious. People being dragged off your streets by all means necessary...ramming their vehicle, abduction? And all you can argue about is the semantics of the word "fascist". Holy crap man, some perspective may be in order.

[Geronimo]

Do you get some sort of kick out of being so obtuse? Just curious. People being dragged off your streets by all means necessary...ramming their vehicle, abduction? And all you can argue about is the semantics of the word "fascist". Holy crap man, some perspective may be in order.

It wouldn't bother you if people were labelling it communist? authoritarian peanut butter is peanut butter right? This isn't just semantics this establishes reasonable expectations for future development and most crucially for opposition. If it's really fascist then partisan uprisings and violent campaigns are likely to be necessary to dislodge it from power. if it's some other weaker more vulnerable play at authoritarianism it can be treated differently. Your complaints of "semantics" are like someone claiming that it's semantics to claim that the patient has a malignant tumor in their arm when it looks far more likely to be a serious infection that should respond to antibiotics. One claim could lead to someone amputating the patient's arm and the other could lead to them making a full recovery after some pills. Political diagnosis matters and demands detailed and granular analysis. not vague broadly painted claims.

[Lorizael]

With any luck, this will deal a serious blow to the credibility and appeal of MAGA in general. If it doesn't, well, he can get good and impeached as everybody hurries to distance themselves at max speed from him, his policies, and his cooties in general.

As a reminder, this is exactly what you said the second time he was impeached.

[Lorizael]

If it's really fascist then partisan uprisings and violent campaigns are likely to be necessary to dislodge it from power. if it's some other weaker more vulnerable play at authoritarianism it can be treated differently.

As I said earlier...

Nobody I know who doesn't think MAGA is a fascist movement thinks MAGA is as dangerous as people who think MAGA is a fascist movement do.

[Lorizael]

Another thing I'll note, which is related, is that the "it's not fascism" crowd keeps performing a subtle switch in the subject being discussed. I've repeatedly said that MAGA is a fascist movement. It's made up of people who espouse fascist beliefs, people one might call fascists. That doesn't mean the US has a fascist government, as if fascism is something you switch to in Civ. Like, I can call Chegitz--our resident communist--a communist, and no one here will be confused and think that means I think Chegitz is part of a communist government. Even if he were elected to office, the government wouldn't suddenly be communist.

There is a powerful movement with fascist beliefs in the US, and members of this movement occupy high levels of government where they are currently influencing the president to do things that accord with their fascist beliefs. This is bad. Very bad. It doesn't mean we necessarily have to be invaded and bombed into submission, or even that democratic means can't be employed to get us back on a moderately safe path, but it's still very, very bad.

[Aeson]

Following your reactions, I watched it again in case I quit to early. This is the most fascist clip you've got? don't you have any extrajudicial killings like fascists were proud to admit performing on an industrial scale?

Nazis didn't start gassing Jews until 6 years after Hitler was elected. Many Germans weren't aware that was happening in the camps until after the war.

[Aeson]

It wouldn't bother you if people were labelling it communist?

You were ready to accept authoritarian Bernie as communist at the drop of a hat.

I, a far left radical, offered the hypothetical as an example. For some reason you just can't accept that a right wing authoritarian could be called a fascist.