Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[Berzerker]

Please try to document that without using russian sources.

What Russian sources have I used? I've seen the BBC interview a sniper, forensic evidence of the crime scene, and live police radio traffic all showing gunmen fired on cops and protesters. The cops retreated so the snipers kept shooting protesters. Odesa soon followed as the right wing cracked down on dissent. Western media starts noticing a 'problem' while Azov attacks eastern Ukrainian protesters. I've seen a few of the interviews with Right Sector et al bragging about how they were the muscle behind the revolution. I gotta believe Obama knew what was coming if he didn't outright order it, but whatever, he did embrace the coup and help it succeed. And then he and Joe armed these fine people to kill protesters along the border with Russia.

So what specifically do you want documented? Nazis killing or attacking Ukrainians? Open your eyes, they've been doing it for years with our tax dollars. The people in the Donbas must roll their eyes when US presidents lecture the world about the war on terror.

[Berzerker]

The weapons shipment was a threat... extortion to have them do HIS PERSONAL BIDDING. FACT!
The rest of you statement is just pure maga alt right nonsense.
The only pattern you see is what the alt right is lying about.
You keep claiming that the dems are the pro war party... but which party wants to keep raising the Pentagon budget and which party wants to reduce it.
Oh, that's right. Trump and his cronies in the Republican party are the leaders of the big war/defense machine. Every time the Dems even hint at lowering military spending, the Repubs go nuts.

The Dems extorted Ukraine to investigate Trump based on lies from the DNC and Clinton campaign designed to frame Trump as a traitor. And they did that before Trump wanted Zelensky to investigate Biden and Burisma...actual corruption, not pee tape nonsense. To say the Dems are the pro-war party would imply the GOP is not, both parties feed the war machine. But Trump got impeached over foreign policy, not asking Zelensky to investigate Biden and Burisma. Vindman was pissed about weapons, he was silent when Dems were employing Ukraine to get Trump.

[pchang]

What would be the point of negotiating with McCarthy when he has not demonstrated he can even speak for the Republican side?

[Berzerker]

The problem with justifying the secession of the Donbas as appropriate because Ukraine was "Nazi" is that right from the very start the Separatists and their Russian backers were filled with fascists. It's perfectly reasonable to support the likes of Azov vs an expansionist Russian state, Especially if Azov is seen over and over moving against armed fascist led organizations and not acting against civillians. Nazi is as Nazi does Berz.

That wasn't my justification. The matter of Nazis is obviously relevant to the people in the region attacked by them and amusing given how Joe Biden and the Dems were arming and punching Nazis at the time, but I dont care what ideology fed the coup and war on protesters. Their leader was toppled in a bloody coup and they got attacked for protesting, they have the right to defend themselves. Russian fascists didn't coup the man they elected. Maybe thats why the people of the Donbas didn't join Azov in its crusade to culturally cleanse their part of Ukraine. Millions of people, a majority supported Minsk or even greater independence and Azov didn't.

When Putin decided Ukrainian "fascism" would be the lynchpin of his Ukraine policy propaganda he immediately set out re-writing history to make the narrative work. He wasn't interested in any of that before the 'coup'.

Who do you think was behind the coup? Did Putin write all those articles in western media about the Nazi problem in Ukraine after the coup? Did his propaganda convince Congress to defund Nazis? So the narrative works...? Well, there ya go.

Why do you trust people obviously relying on that narrative?

The bottom line is that while Azov was a piece of Ukraine's response to the Donbas secessions all of the Separatist forces were founded by lovely fascists like Pavel Gubarev and when these useful idiots proved insufficiently useful Putin directly replaced them with people like Moscow native known FSB agent Igor Girkin.

The Separatist armed forces were founded by fascists who attacked the people of the Donbas and directly ran all subsequent "elections" with their armed nazi thugs. Why do you think the involvement of Azov in resisting them makes it ok for the Nazi Separatists foreign backer Russia to invade Ukraine?

Russia has had RT paying conservative personalities to push their message in the US since 2014. You Berz are evidence of how successful that strategy can be.

"Nor did the speakers dwell on the fact that the far right is hardly the driving force of Ukrainian politics."

That didn't age well, they drove the coup and the war in the east for 8 years, Nato's foot soldiers. Those 'separatist forces' were people living in the Donbas and they had a right to defend themselves, it doesn't matter who helped them and why. If Nazi thugs ran the elections why did the Donbas vote for Minsk?

[Berzerker]

I supported the Russiagate investigations into Trump until I realized it was a scam by the Democrats to frame Trump as a traitor (Joe McCarthy aint got nuttin on Hillary), but by that time I still wanted to see the reports from Mueller, Horowitz and Durham because Trump deserved exoneration. Trump should have shut it down and fired Comey and the top people at these agencies and put whistle blowers in charge his 1st week. I was convinced Trump was rotten to the core and they'd nail him on all sorts of crimes, I even called him a Manchurian candidate. Shame on me.

[BlackCat]

Never mind how the Nazis slaughtered a bunch of people and attacked protesters across the country

Please try to document that without using russian sources.

[Berzerker]

No matter what you think about the removal of Viktor Yanukovych from his office,
the fact remains that Volodomyr Selenskyj came to office by general and fair elections.
(especially they were much fairer / less fishy than the election that brought Yanukovytch to power)

The people in Donbass and Luhansk would have had every opportunity to take part in this election as well

Oh yeah, they had a coup followed by a fair election. Never mind how the Nazis slaughtered a bunch of people and attacked protesters across the country, that had no effect on the political process. The war prevented millions from voting and the guy they did elect was just couped, tell them about fair elections and democracy.

[Donegeal]

Nothing to do with this thread, but just out of curiosity: Years (and years)² ago I think I remember you saying or indicating you were a Republican. Do you still consider yourself a Republican or has the party left you/you left the party? Heck, I don't even know how they do it in Illinois. Do they require you to register with a party in order to vote in their primaries (they don't in Wisconsin)?

[Jon Miller]

But at the time there was no proposal from the Republicans. About the time there was a proposal, Biden agreed to negotiate.

Also, can you give an example where the Democrats extracted concessions from the Republicans in order to raise the debt ceiling? Like the Democrats would not raise it unless the Republicans gave them some policies or spending they wanted?

JM

[Dinner]

Biden literally refused to negotiate ANY deal for months. He said nothing but a "clean" raise was acceptable as a negotiating tactic. Republicans made very clear they wanted big spending cuts and, as a tactic, Biden decided to wait until the last second to allow any negotiations. FACT!

[Dinner]

Fair points. Now, when Biden told the Ukrainian government to fire the special prosecutor looking into corruption of the Ukrainian state oil company which has hired Hunter Biden as protection despite having zero qualifications or he would cancel all U.S. foreign aid to Ukraine... Was that some how different? We had Joe Biden using official acts to benefit his family's bribery schemes. It seems the same self interest to me.

[pchang]

Negotiate with what? McCarthy did not have a plan or the rest of his caucus lined up until very late.

[BeBMan]

USSR-1945: the country that triumphed over fascism. Russia-2022: the country of triumphant fascism.” This was the brusque placard in the hands of the man who stood, in late April 2022, in front of the tricolor-wrapped tribunes, raised before the Kremlin wall for the upcoming celebration of Russia’s victory over fascism back in May 1945. The gaunt, white-haired man with a neatly trimmed mustache was Oleg Orlov. When the Russian police “admitted” him just a few minutes later, this was his fifth detention since February 24, when Russia invaded Ukraine.

from: https://meduza.io/en/feature/2023/06...ing-it-fascism

[Dinner]

It is something Democrats themselves also do so stop lying and pretending it is partisan. What the debt limit negotiations are is a chance for the part which controls part of Congress to extract concessions for must pass legislation. Both sides do it and the country is better when the two parties are forced to compromise.

BTW it was Biden who spent months simply refusing to negotiate preferring to play chicken.

[Ming]

The whole debt ceiling crisis was a joke as it was the Republicans that didn't want to pay many bills that were created due to their actions.