Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[Geronimo]

Are you all thick? Rhetorical question, I know...๐Ÿ™„

It's a clear event, look it up you morons...

stop being coy, answer us or drop it. immediately prior and during the "Prague Spring" Czechoslavakia never proposed any new relationship or status change to either warsaw pact or NATO *except* for a Czechoslovakian proposal by Alexander Dubฤek (as part of the raft of inflammatory and radical "socialism with a human face" proposals) to consider converting Czechoslovakia into a neutral state.in the future. The Warsaw pact singled that out for strong condemnation and repeatedly cited that proposal when justifying the subsequent invasion which Czechoslovakia didn't militarily resist.

Are you seriously proposing that absent the proposal to become neutral the warsaw pact would have stayed out and let "socialism with a human face" proceed? Are you seriously proposing that this history reinforces your assertion that if only Ukraine had officially embraced neutrality that Putin would not have invaded? Just tell us what exactly it is we might read in the history books that will back up any of your assertions.

[N35t0r]

Then explain what the **** your points are (other than 'read Wikipedia', which is not explaining your point), because absent some pretty wild leaps of logic, they don't make a lot of sense.

Let's start with an easy one: how was the West cornering Putin when they bent over backwards and turned a blind eye in order to foment trade and having good relations? (Should we mention the fact that you criticize the West for not doing enough enough about Chechnya and Georgia)? Russia was even welcome to join NATO.

Is the world also cornering Kim Jong Un by allowing South Korea to have an arms industry and trading with them, and would be responsible if Kim decided to shell Seoul?

[MOBIUS]

Just to be clear, this 'corner' that Putin was put into, was not being free to recreate the Russian empire? Or do you have an actually valid point?

No to your first question.

Yes to your second question.

[MOBIUS]

So your counterargument about why Ukraine should have tried to remain neutral (even though Moscow hardly lets countries under their own thumb go if they can help it) is that it was fine when the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia because they had invaded Hungary ten years prior? And that's this somehow shouldn't further motivate countries trying to get themselves off Moscow's yoke to try and join the only alliance that had a proven track record of allowing exactly this?

Wait, maybe your mean that rather than trying to democratically steer their own country towards where the people wanted it to go, Ukraine should have gotten an iron-fisted dictator who regressed personal rights and impoverished the country, and then they might have gotten a bit of leeway?

No

[N35t0r]

Putin felt he was backed into a corner and gave an ultimatum that was ignored since before 2008, so that reaction shouldn't have come as a surprise.

We've been over this a billion times. His response therefore was 'understandable' and the tactics used (with resulting war crimes - not to be condoned - but certainly to be predicted!) expected.

That is why the war had to be avoided at all costs and why by not avoiding it, the West and Zelensky have done the people of Ukraine a great disservice, to put things extremely mildly... ๐Ÿ˜ข

Just to be clear, this 'corner' that Putin was put into, was not being free to recreate the Russian empire? Or do you have an actually valid point?

[N35t0r]

History doesn't begin with the most recent event in isolation.

Warsaw Pact forces were heavy-handed with the Czechs because of what happened in Hungary a decade earlier.

However dissention was allowed, as in the case of Romania and Albania.

You can't look at one event without understanding the picture as a whole.

I don't understand your problem with this?

Also, to accuse me of a thing you yourself do, is gross double standards at a minimum ๐Ÿ˜˜

So your counterargument about why Ukraine should have tried to remain neutral (even though Moscow hardly lets countries under their own thumb go if they can help it) is that it was fine when the Soviets invaded Czechoslovakia because they had invaded Hungary ten years prior? And that's this somehow shouldn't further motivate countries trying to get themselves off Moscow's yoke to try and join the only alliance that had a proven track record of allowing exactly this?

Wait, maybe your mean that rather than trying to democratically steer their own country towards where the people wanted it to go, Ukraine should have gotten an iron-fisted dictator who regressed personal rights and impoverished the country, and then they might have gotten a bit of leeway?

[MOBIUS]

Russia started the war, so Moby's point to "avoid it" is bull****.

Putin felt he was backed into a corner and gave an ultimatum that was ignored since before 2008, so that reaction shouldn't have come as a surprise.

We've been over this a billion times. His response therefore was 'understandable' and the tactics used (with resulting war crimes - not to be condoned - but certainly to be predicted!) expected.

That is why the war had to be avoided at all costs and why by not avoiding it, the West and Zelensky have done the people of Ukraine a great disservice, to put things extremely mildly... ๐Ÿ˜ข

[MOBIUS]

Right, those annoying Brits and French should have taken a better look at the Spanish civil war and just let Hitler split Poland with the Soviets. That would have avoided a lot of death.

Well, they should have also declared war on the Soviets, by that logic ๐Ÿ˜‰

[MOBIUS]

Your points are mostly claiming something is self-evident, against the opinion of a large proportion of historians, laughing, and telling people to read Wikipedia.

Oh, and removing agency from like 80% of the world's population

You'll have to do better than that if you want people not to ignore your points.

History doesn't begin with the most recent event in isolation.

Warsaw Pact forces were heavy-handed with the Czechs because of what happened in Hungary a decade earlier.

However dissention was allowed, as in the case of Romania and Albania.

You can't look at one event without understanding the picture as a whole.

I don't understand your problem with this?

Also, to accuse me of a thing you yourself do, is gross double standards at a minimum ๐Ÿ˜˜

[BeBMan]

Russia started the war, so Moby's point to "avoid it" is bull****.

[N35t0r]

Yes, continue to ignore my point: Russian tactics (war crimes) have been well documented, so war with Russia should have been avoided at all costs.

E.g. the flattening of Grozny and Aleppo should have provided a clue of what was going to happen...

Thank you for making my point so eloquently for me ๐Ÿ™‚

Right, those annoying Brits and French should have taken a better look at the Spanish civil war and just let Hitler split Poland with the Soviets. That would have avoided a lot of death.

[MOBIUS]

Was that so hard? And if you don't see a "point" in highlighting Russian crimes in Ukraine while constantly coming up with excuses for the military invasion that enabled those crimes I can't help ya, but that's your prob, not mine

Yes, continue to ignore my point: Russian tactics (war crimes) have been well documented, so war with Russia should have been avoided at all costs.

E.g. the flattening of Grozny and Aleppo should have provided a clue of what was going to happen...

Thank you for making my point so eloquently for me ๐Ÿ™‚

[N35t0r]

Ha ha, I don't post for a few hours and I'm accused of obfuscating in a pile-on ๐Ÿ˜‚

Says all the people ignoring my points anyway...

Maybe I did answer your questions and they got deleted...? ๐Ÿ˜‡

Your points are mostly claiming something is self-evident, against the opinion of a large proportion of historians, laughing, and telling people to read Wikipedia.

Oh, and removing agency from like 80% of the world's population

You'll have to do better than that if you want people not to ignore your points.

[BeBMan]

Russia has committed war crimes.

Was that so hard? And if you don't see a "point" in highlighting Russian crimes in Ukraine while constantly coming up with excuses for the military invasion that enabled those crimes I can't help ya, but that's your prob, not mine

[MOBIUS]

Quoted for hilarity. Now go into the other thread and adress the Wiki article on Russia's warcrimes in Ukraine.

Russia has committed war crimes.

What is your point?