Baffled by Charlottesville

[Berzerker]

yup

[Elok]

Further thought: I haven't read much on the psychology of mass movements, but what I have read inclines me to believe that Charlottesville is highly counterproductive in terms of discouraging the growth of Nazism. Basically, the ideal convert to a MM is a miserable bastard with no prospects and nothing much to live for. He's not all that particular about what cause he fights for; it's almost a cliche, by now, to talk about ISIS fighters picking up "Islam for dummies" at the airport shop on their way to Syria. Likewise it's said that Hitler did a fair amount of recruiting from the communists, and vice versa. The point is to be part of something, anything, big and dramatic that people have to pay attention to. This sort of person doesn't particularly mind losing his life, if the only alternative is to go on feeling that his life is meaningless.

As you might have noticed, our country has lots of miserable bastards right now. Many of them prefer literal opiates to the ideological kind, but not all. Nazis are not respectable, but respectability is unnecessary, if not outright undesirable, at this point. Trump has been wiping his arse with the country's dignity for six months now, and frankly a lot of people like him for it. He drives liberals berserk, and if he doesn't actually do any of the stuff he promised, well, it's not like Hillary was going to help the deplorables either. But the Charlottesville Nazis? They've just one-upped Trump. Because you can go on YouTube and watch liberal protesters essentially line up to get the **** beat out of them. They don't fight back much, or evidently all that well, since they outnumbered the Nazis two to one and nobody talks about any injured Nazis. They also don't talk much about arrested Nazis, except the one in the car. So, you can go to a protest, and count on twice your number of SJWs showing up and screaming in your face until you use them as pinatas. All the people who look down on you and call you crap? You get to wail on them with no apparent consequences. The only way this could be more attractive to the Hillbilly Elegy crowd is if Nancy Pelosi showed up and asked to be punched in the vulva.

Or you could do what the Boston group did, and be respectable. Then you'll still have SJWs mobbing and screaming at you, but you have to stay in a box and take it, and the narrative will be "HA we showed those Nazis!" instead of "Look at this black guy getting clobbered in a garage!" This is probably not a hard choice for the Nazis' prime recruiting demographic.

[BeBMan]

To the "what sense does it make to protest when most ppl are against Nazis/etc anyway" point:

Yeah, from what I know hardcore extremists of whatever flavour will hardly ever change their mind, and certainly not be impressed by counter-demos, it could rather reinforce the extremist's POVs.

But there are usually a lot of ppl "in between" -- they might not care about or even dislike Nazis/KKK/whiteoverguys, reject most of their ideas, but they might hold at least *some* views that would connect to extremist ideology at *some* point, esp. if their probs and fears are played by clever demagogues.

These are the ppl that drove the wave of "right-wing populism" we seen in Europe and the US in recent months or even years. And the prob is that this wave transported extreme right-wing views into the mainstream.

Take the whole *fake news/OMG the (liberal) mainstream media* thing - there's no prob with a sceptic view towards media of whatever background, but their is one with ppl declaring everything lies or propaganda that does not conform to their view without actual argument. And it's not new - the German term "Lügenpresse" (literally "lying press") that got new life in recent years is older, but had been prominently used by early NS propagandists to smear opposing views.

Other examples would be immigration - one could long debate related problems and solutions, but fears that everyone coming from abroad is out to get you are something that connects to extremist ideas.

So IMO a valid point of protest/counter-action etc. is that you don't want to have extreme right/whatever stuff to extend further into parts of the polit. mainstream

Now whether the actual form of protest is helpful or counter-productive in this regard is another question. Historically the open violence between left and right in the early 1930ies actually helped the Nazis to present themselves as the force to restore "order".

[Proteus_MST]

Further thought: I haven't read much on the psychology of mass movements, but what I have read inclines me to believe that Charlottesville is highly counterproductive in terms of discouraging the growth of Nazism. Basically, the ideal convert to a MM is a miserable bastard with no prospects and nothing much to live for. He's not all that particular about what cause he fights for; it's almost a cliche, by now, to talk about ISIS fighters picking up "Islam for dummies" at the airport shop on their way to Syria. Likewise it's said that Hitler did a fair amount of recruiting from the communists, and vice versa. The point is to be part of something, anything, big and dramatic that people have to pay attention to. This sort of person doesn't particularly mind losing his life, if the only alternative is to go on feeling that his life is meaningless.
...

I recommend Gustave le Bon - Psychology of masses (Psychologie des foules) from the founder of mass psychology.

Le Bon basically says that, as soon as a certain size is reached, a group of humans becomes a crowd. In this state, the intelligence and general intellectual capacity of the individual (in the mass) decreases (as long as he is part of the mass) and his suggestibility by emotional argumants (by leaders who appeal to his raw emotions and not his intellect) rises enormously.

That, of course, makes it easier for any demamogues to infuence people in the mass ... maybe to do things which, outside of the mass, they wouldn't have done.

Well, as we all know, the Nazis were among the first who used orchestrated mass events in order to influence people.
And also nowadays it is used a lot ... both, in chuch (the Megachurches and huge sermons some churches/preachers employ) as well as in letion campaigns (which usually are large mass events ... and I guess ths explains part of the success of Trump ... he came not up with intellectual arguments but with emotional ones)

But it also shows that actually, if you are in a crowd, you are vulnerable to its influence (by those who try to steer/influence the mass with emotions) even if you possess a certain level of intelligence /intellectual capacity

[Dry]

Confronting them (non-violently, of course) has a lot of symbolism.
If they are marching alone (without counter protests) they may get the illusion that they are strong, feared and that they rule the streets (they are marching on). Which actually might give them a kick ... reinforce their behavior.
If they are surrounded by much more numerous counter protesters it shows them that they are not societally accepted, that the population stands against them and, even more important, that the people don't fear them. It also shows the rest of the world, that the population stands against the Neonazis and so may have symbolism even outside of the country.
The experience (of counter protests) may also dissuade some people from joining the Neonazi-Movement (or püersuade some of its members, to break ties with them and seek help of exit-support groups.

I disagree.
I have no experience in sociology or psychology, but I've been part of some religious minority and from what I hear and see in other minorities there is a general pattern of paranoia in those groups.
When you are part of such a minority it's easy to think the world is up against you. A usual speech by ideologues of the group goes this way:
"We are the ones who see things as they are, we are the ones who know what needs to be done, we are the ones who tell the truth. The rest of the world is blind, mindless sheep, or evil power hungry liars and manipulators. They hate us for telling the truth and they will do everything to silence us".
And many followers will believe that story, because it seem to explain what they experience.

The best analogy I can draw is the one of a zombie story.
Members of minority ideologies see themselves as the only people 'alive'. In their view, the rest of the world is contaminated with the mainstream ideology that turned them into mindless zombies. They are the few against the many.
If you view the mainstream opinion as wrong, rotten, disgusting and turning people into apathetic mindless humanoids, you'll go to great length not to be turned.
By counter protesting, especially if you are overwhelmingly more numerous and you shout slogans and insults in their faces, you reinforce this "I am surrounded by aggressive, shrieking, mindless zombies who want to turn me into themselves" idea.
You may indeed trigger an extremely violent reaction from the most mentally fragile or unbalanced ones, they'll go into survival mode.

In short, I don't think that ignoring groupuscules reinforce them in any way. Surrounding them with an aggressive, shrieking crowd certainly does.

The real reason I think for counter protesters, at least at an unconscious level, is not to dissuade people from joining them or to make some of them quit as it has usually the opposite effect, but rather to shed light on what is perceived as the greatest danger.
The GoT example is great here: for an anti-nazi activist, the greatest danger is Neo-Nazism, the reappearance of the ideology. In their mind, ordinary people are not aware enough of this. The strategy is thus to show the world what the 'real' enemy is capable of. People think White Walkers are history, they are busy in their futile bickering ignoring the real threat. In order to unite people against this, let's (capture one and) show the world they exist and who they are.
That is the unconscious strategy of the counter protesters: we need to wake the world, to show them Nazis are real. Let's provoke them until they react so everybody will see them for what they are.
Anti-Nazis on conscious level want less Nazis, on unconscious level, as long as they think mainstream people are not mobilized enough need more Nazis, more outrageous behavior from them as this could raise the alarm amongst ordinary people.

I have not watched any footage of the counter protest, but if they were indeed shouting insults, provoking them, they got exactly the reaction they were looking for. Well, problem is it worked beyond expectations.

[Bereta_Eder]

I think the staus quo of political establishment has to find solutions.

They can't keep blaiming the immigrants (if they are right wing) or the markets (if they are left wing)

meanwhile a divide is being formulated.


nazis are braindead. thei rmamas didn't breastfeed them.


however the littl bourgeois, you know that little **** that has his liuttle house/appartment and thinks he is upper class but is middle class and sees wealth eroding will turn to nazism


It's in his blood. fascism is born out of a disgruntlewd middle class. be that thebrexit (the large part that had to do with xenophobia) be that whatever.


there are problems and problems need to be fixed.



the dominent narrative has held since the end of ww2

it's coca cola basically


doesn't wor so good anymore

populism gives an outlet


a brit writer wrote in a book, what is fascism but an outlet to a escapist mystical fantasy something that reality would never give.


it's a cowards way to take refuge there and it's next to nationalism


but as said,

dominent narrative established political status quo need to find solutions. if they don't. populists take more sway (is that the correct word?)

[Bereta_Eder]

now about nazis being countered.

it;s about power.


power isn't lkeft or right wing


an example


durinf the protests in athens I was with the SO taking a stroll in the cetner.


there was a massive protestation and some self proclaimed anarchists anti-power-ists (dont kjow if a word like that exists in english) were wreaking havoc


noone's gonna touch you


not the riot police not them



if you WANT TO, sure, if not, then no

free will


I didn't, so we were walking on a street I saw a self proclaimed anarchist that must haveb been a rich ****ing kid from the noiterhern suburbs, smashing alight bulb with fury with complete disregard, making amunition, not giing a **** just wanting to destroy

I wanted to kick his face in


I don't care if you're right or left wing, I care about wether you THINK you have power


over me

[Aeson]

Elok, you are contradicting yourself. First Nazis are so abhorrent no one, even racists, want to associate with them, and then this is something drawing people to associate with them.

The liberal push is to associate run of the mill racists with Nazis, KKK, etc. Every Trump voter who takes it upon themselves to mimic the Nazis is obviously making that association easier to make.

And most importantly, getting Trump himself to morally equivocate Nazis, KKK, racism, and murder with counter demonstrating makes it that much less likely Trump will get any of his abhorrent agenda enacted.

[Elok]

I'm saying that the tactics used at C-ville are making Nazis somewhat more sympathetic, rather than less.

Calling everybody who disagrees with you a fascist only weakens the power of the word, the same way "bigot" used to mean something really bad but is now merely another word for someone who disagrees with SJWs in some way. The "liberal push" is largely talking to itself; it's OBVIOUS that every nationalist is a fascist if you read Vox or Mother Jones; if you don't, it's hard to see how the Boston crowd were threatening anyone, and antifa tactics begin to seem like a potential problem when anybody can be classified as a threat by self-appointed moral authorities and harassed without due process. To put it another way, if everybody who isn't with them is considered to be against them, then everybody who isn't with them will decide to be against them. Divide and conquer would be a far wiser tactic. Remember that Trump voters were roughly fifty percent of the country.

For now, the substantial majority of citizens will want nothing to do with the Nazis, but their target demographic--the maybe five percent who "mostly agree" with [white supremacists/white nationalists/KKK]" but aren't in militant groups at present--will be more interested.

[Aeson]

You yourself claimed no one showed up to Charlottesville because no one wants to associate with Nazis. Getting that 5% of virulently racist Trump supporter to associate more with Nazis, KKK ... is exactly what the left wants. Because those 5% are making the case that they really are Nazis that much easier to make.

Trump is of course the main dish.

[Elok]

There's a great post at SSC I haven't been able to find, to the effect that political bias is significantly stronger than racial bias in this country right now. That is, a white guy from the boonies is more likely to be open-minded towards a black man than towards a white person who graduated from Oberlin. I can't speak for other states, but I at least grew up learning how awesome MLK was, the heroism of the Civil Rights Movement, etc. The message "leftists hate white supremacists, and define white supremacism very broadly to include people who do not identify themselves as such and may merely dislike immigrants or like dumb statues" is not a winner here.

[Aeson]

You are doing much the same thing with "leftist" and "SJW" .. broadly applying labels to diverse groups.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have no experience in sociology or psychology, but I've been part of some religious minority and from what I hear and see in other minorities there is a general pattern of paranoia in those groups.
When you are part of such a minority it's easy to think the world is up against you. A usual speech by ideologues of the group goes this way:
"We are the ones who see things as they are, we are the ones who know what needs to be done, we are the ones who tell the truth. The rest of the world is blind, mindless sheep, or evil power hungry liars and manipulators. They hate us for telling the truth and they will do everything to silence us".
And many followers will believe that story, because it seem to explain what they experience.

It does match our experience, because that's pretty much what does happen. Counterprotests try to shut these groups down and they recruit among those who think that it's not fair. The louder and more aggressive and more obnoxious the counter protests, the more reasonable, quiet, and composed our side becomes. We want the average bystander to see your side as swarming and frothing with hate. Ten minutes at one of our protests can under EVERYTHING that you've been cultivating in the media. And those people aren't going to believe you again.

By counter protesting, especially if you are overwhelmingly more numerous and you shout slogans and insults in their faces, you reinforce this "I am surrounded by aggressive, shrieking, mindless zombies who want to turn me into themselves" idea.

We mostly don't care. We expect opposition but we're after the people who aren't attacking us.

You may indeed trigger an extremely violent reaction from the most mentally fragile or unbalanced ones, they'll go into survival mode.

We train/cull our volunteers so that you're not getting to that point with us.

In short, I don't think that ignoring groupuscules reinforce them in any way. Surrounding them with an aggressive, shrieking crowd certainly does.

Really, it doesn't matter. We're not after the counterprotests. If you counter protest you draw a much larger crowd. If you don't counterprotest then we have free rein over our display and our message. If you don't show up, I personally think it's a bigger blow than if you do because it cultivates the response that we are free to do what we want and we can be wayyy more confident. That's the psychological effect of pushing down pressure and then releasing it.

That is the unconscious strategy of the counter protesters: we need to wake the world, to show them Nazis are real. Let's provoke them until they react so everybody will see them for what they are.

Right now that strategy is an unmitigated failure. By the targets being so broad, you've effectively lost a ton of sympathy that you had on the outset and pretty much everyone at this point sees it as two groups of thugs going at each other. What have you gained by 'counterprotesting', except by dragging yourself into the mire.

If you're going to counterprotest, and it's a small protest, bring about the same number of people. Otherwise you'll generate sympathy for the other side. Especially if you bring bats, etc. The other thing is that by cancelling rallies, etc, you'll stoke the desire for more and bigger rallies at uncontrolled locations.

[Uncle Sparky]

As usual BK, you are wrong. It is essential to show racists and bigots that they are wrong. They hold a rally with 50 people, meet them with 5000. Don't physically attack them, but equally, if they want to spew racist crap, even Donald Trump approved racist crap, shout them down... again you don't have to yell naughty words, maybe something like, " A people united will never be defeated". Then take the microphone, have a religious leader start talking about niceness, follow that with a folksinger or poet, throw in labour, and/or political, and/or other religious speakers... another poet or author, maybe a pipe band or choir, then an imam, a LGBT speaker... gee... a couple of hours have passed without everyone talking about killing Jews and immigrants! And where did the original racists protesters go? Who cares. Back into their parents' basements.
And, like in the states, the bigots are getting their pictures taken. Back in March, a friend of mine was assaulted by a anti-immigration racists fellow named Brad Salzberg in Vancouver. The assault was captured on video, and the fellow seemed to pick my friend to knock down because she's a rather small woman.
I will probably be attending more counter protests this year. I'm quite comfortable shouting down racist scum. Personally, I won't bring a weapon. Usually, the anarchists (yes, we have them here too) will show up, read the mood, and react.

[Elok]

Please read the OP: I request that criticism of the tweedle trolls be confined to comments on their posts, so intelligent conversation doesn't get interrupted. Thank you.

[Uncle Sparky]

Sorry I'm not intelligent enough for you. Feel free to block me.

[Elok]

No conversation with BK is intelligent. If you like indulging him, good for you. Comment or take it elsewhere. I don't want his **** dragging down my thread.