Illinois overtaking California!

[giblets]

People don't make a choice to become gay/lesbian/hetero ... or to become cis-sexual or transsexual

I'm guessing he's saying gays should choose to be celibate, or have relationships with people they are not attracted to.

[Ming]

Typical Ben... His I know a gay person so he knows everything about gays... how he has seen all the troubles... the problems... blah blah blah.
I know far more gay people and I am actually their friend. I've seen what religious hate does to them, the harm it causes, and how they simply want to marry the person they love.
I've seen gay children going through hell because they have parents like Ben who won't accept them for who they are. People who are devastated because their parent wouldn't come to their weddings.

But Ben claims he seen things that would shock us... blah blah blah... But he only sees things through religious hate glasses. But that's OK, he's their "friend".
BS! He's not their "friend"... he just trying to justify his hate.

[Ben Kenobi]

People don't make a choice to become gay/lesbian/hetero ... or to become cis-sexual or transsexual

Go take that up with him. His words, not mine.

[Ben Kenobi]

I never said it was out of ignorance. It's out of a false sense of superiority and it's just plain meanness.

I met him before I became a Christian, rah. If he wasn't happy with his life, why would I assume that he should be happy with his life? He wasn't and said so.

You believe you're entitled to a legal marriage but others aren't because they are different.

Uh, no. That's not how marriage works. It's not an 'entitlement', or a right. Secondly, I believe that marriage has a definition. Just like anything else, relationships that are not marriage should not be considered marriage.

I don't use it as an excuse to discriminate against people.

So why are you assuming that we should come to the same conclusion? Would it not be reasonable that different experiences would lead one to different conclusions?

Oh,that's right, based on your experience you think it's ok to dislike all black people. I almost forgot about that one.

I said it was the natural response, once bitten, twice shy.

And if you wouldn't support you own children, you'll also make a crappy parent.

If your child wanted to smoke and you discouraged them from taking up smoking would you be considered a good parent or a bad one?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm guessing he's saying gays should choose to be celibate, or have relationships with people they are not attracted to.

As single persons ought to be. But I suspect you disagree that single people should be celibate as well. Curious that.

[Ben Kenobi]

As for 'religious hate glasses', MIng, do you believe that Catholicism teaches hate when it teaches that marriage is reserved for one man and one woman?

It may shock you but Poly has had a lot to do with my formation. There was a time in my life - right up to about 2004 or so where I actually supported this.

Poly has been instrumental in pushing me in the other direction over the years.

[Ming]

As for 'religious hate glasses', MIng, do you believe that Catholicism teaches hate when it teaches that marriage is reserved for one man and one woman?

No I don't. But I think many people use religion to justify their hate and bigotry. I don't see the same levels of hate applied to other sinners. I'm betting you've been to a wedding between a man and a woman that wasn't a Catholic wedding. But in the eyes of the church, they aren't married in the eye of God. They are just living in sin, yet you support their marriage by attending.
A sin is a sin...

And as you say, all people are sinners, even you. Would that be justification for people to hate you?
Heck, the church teaches us to go forth and multiply... Have you done that yet?
The Church doesn't teach hate, but people like you use it to justify their hate.

[rah]

If your child wanted to smoke and you discouraged them from taking up smoking would you be considered a good parent or a bad one?

Ben, comparing choosing to smoke to being gay.

You are unbelievable.

Maybe if you ever have children some day you will properly understand. Until then, there can be no discussion.

It is still my definition of world's worst parent.

[Dinner]

California has a 13.5% state income tax does it? Yeah, if you make iver $5 million. Meanwhile, in the real world, the median effective state income tax rate is 1.65%.

You truly are a stupid clown who runs his mouth without any knowledge, Ben.

[giblets]

As single persons ought to be. But I suspect you disagree that single people should be celibate as well. Curious that.

How are you single if you're not celibate...? Unless you're talking about one night stands?

[Ben Kenobi]

No I don't. But I think many people use religion to justify their hate and bigotry.

Well, then. Now you're arguing something different. Now you're going to have to argue that my position has nothing to do with my faith.

I don't see the same levels of hate applied to other sinners. I'm betting you've been to a wedding between a man and a woman that wasn't a Catholic wedding. But in the eyes of the church, they aren't married in the eye of God.

I have declined to attend other family weddings in the past, Ming. As for the former, no the Catholic church does not teach that a wedding between non-Christian Catholics is necessarily bad. There are circumstances that would also be problematic, but in general that is not the case.

This is not the same for homosexual marriages, where we are instructed not to attend.

And as you say, all people are sinners, even you. Would that be justification for people to hate you?

Indeed. But there is a difference between the sin and the sinner.

Heck, the church teaches us to go forth and multiply... Have you done that yet?

Not yet.

[rah]

Actually if Ben has been celibate since he converted, I really feel sorry for him. He's also getting up in age where he's going to have to marry a much younger woman if he expect to have natural children and he doesn't seem to have enough money to swing that one.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, comparing choosing to smoke to being gay.

The reasoning behind discouraging children from smoking has to do with the health consequences.

The same applies to homosexuality. If I can justify discouraging unhealthy behaviors as a parent wrt smoking the same applies to homosexuality.

It is still my definition of world's worst parent.

Yet you believe it's ok to discourage a child from smoking. Curious that.

[Ben Kenobi]

Actually if Ben has been celibate since he converted, I really feel sorry for him. He's also getting up in age where he's going to have to marry a much younger woman if he expect to have natural children and he doesn't seem to have enough money to swing that one.

Again. Not yet.

[Ben Kenobi]

How are you single if you're not celibate...? Unless you're talking about one night stands?

I believe sex is reserved for marriage. That applies to everyone.