A victory for polands women

[Proteus_MST]

to be fair though, I do think you're the bigger idiot for arguing with ben in the first place.

which is a shame, really because I think you're an otherwise intelligent person whose posts i usually look forward to.

Thanks

Well, actually I know very well that arguing with Ben is futile and that probably not even the most well presented facts will manage to change anything about his beliefs, or anything that touches his stance on topics like blacks, homosexuals or abortion.
Dunno why I do it nevertheless ... maybe masochism

[Ben Kenobi]

I wouldn't let you within 200 miles of my (theoretical) kids, let alone let you teach them.

So you hate America?

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, actually I know very well that arguing with Ben is futile and that probably not even the most well presented facts will manage to change anything about his beliefs, or anything that touches his stance on topics like blacks, homosexuals or abortion.

FWIW, you specifically called me out. Why should I disappoint?

[Ben Kenobi]

From your source:

About two in five respondents (38%) believe that human life should be protected from conception to natural death.

The easiest explanation is that Poles are quite polarized. You have 40 percent saying that abortion should be outright banned, from conception onwards. You have probably another 40 that support the current law and 20 percent that are the muddled middle.

[Ming]

Nope, I fail to see why it's a victory for Poland when a majority of Poles voted to ban abortion outright.

So... I still haven't seen ANYTHING that makes your statement correct.
So far, everything has shown you to be wrong as usual. Even you are quoting stats that prove yourself wrong.

[Ben Kenobi]

So far, everything has shown you to be wrong as usual. Even you are quoting stats that prove yourself wrong.

If the best argument you have on your side of majority support is to cite a poll, 450k signatures is substantive evidence to the contrary that Poles by and large want to ban abortion outright. The politicians in denying the Poles who submitted the signatures are going to face significant political pressure to actually satisfy the desire of Poles for change.

[Ming]

450k signatures is substantive evidence to the contrary that Poles by and large want to ban abortion outright.

And this proves the majority how?

You have yet to show any evidence what so ever that the majority want to ban abortion outright. If you don't want to believe an actual poll, please find ANY EVIDENCE that supports your claim. Your 450K signatures only proves that 450K people were willing to sign a referendum. It does NOT PROVE that the majority are for it. So please provide some real evidence to support your claim.

[Ben Kenobi]

And this proves the majority how?

The fact that the counter petition only netted 200k signatures, a fact that was in Proteus' source, and a fact he chose not to tell us about?

You have yet to show any evidence what so ever that the majority want to ban abortion outright. If you don't want to believe an actual poll, please find ANY EVIDENCE that supports your claim. Your 450K signatures only proves that 450K people were willing to sign a referendum. It does NOT PROVE that the majority are for it. So please provide some real evidence to support your claim.

Actually 450k signatures is many more people than any poll would cover.

[Proteus_MST]

The fact that the counter petition only netted 200k signatures, a fact that was in Proteus' source, and a fact he chose not to tell us about?
Actually 450k signatures is many more people than any poll would cover.

Except for maybe switzerland (with its long history of direct democracy) I am certain only a small percentage of any countries population really cares about any petitions ... or even knows about them ... and an even smaller percentage of people actually signs them.
(also I am, sure that the existence of the "stricter abortion law"-petition was spread among much more people, thanks to the catholic church and Pro-Life groups, than was the case for the counter petition)

I am sure that in any scientific discussion (except maybe of "scientific discussions" with the scientific standard of Creationists and ID-proponents) you will get blasted, if you build your arguments on petitions (which are signed by a tiny minority of the population) and disregard representative polls (made by professional independent polling institutes) that contradict your claims

[Ming]

The fact that the counter petition only netted 200k signatures, a fact that was in Proteus' source, and a fact he chose not to tell us about?
Actually 450k signatures is many more people than any poll would cover.

So... are you being ignorant on purpose? A petition/referendum isn't a poll. All that "proves" is the anti abortion bunch was better at getting signatures.
It is in no way "proof" that it represents "the majority". Again, please prove your lie... oh, that's right... you can't. You want to ignore or twist the results of the only poll out there because it disagrees with your lie/made up BS.

It's interesting that the MPs voted to reject the bill by 352 votes to 58. While that is not Proof of the percentage of people for or against, it's still interesting that the vote wasn't even close. But that probably had more to do with the 5 year sentence for those that had an abortion. It was initially backed by the Catholic Church, but bishops then said they could not support the new law because of the additional proposal to jail women who had an abortion.

So one more time BK... provide some actual proof for a change to support your lies/BS. Good Luck.

[Ben Kenobi]

Except for maybe switzerland (with its long history of direct democracy) I am certain only a small percentage of any countries population really cares about any petitions ... or even knows about them ... and an even smaller percentage of people actually signs them.
(also I am, sure that the existence of the "stricter abortion law"-petition was spread among much more people, thanks to the catholic church and Pro-Life groups, than was the case for the counter petition)

If, as you stated, pro abortion people were the majority of the population, shouldn't the counter-petition get more signatures?

[Ben Kenobi]

It's interesting that the MPs voted to reject the bill by 352 votes to 58. While that is not Proof of the percentage of people for or against, it's still interesting that the vote wasn't even close. But that probably had more to do with the 5 year sentence for those that had an abortion. It was initially backed by the Catholic Church, but bishops then said they could not support the new law because of the additional proposal to jail women who had an abortion.

Which raises the question - if the bill didn't have a 5 year arrest for women charged with procuring an abortion would it have passed? That's the million dollar question here. I don't see the vote as evidence that Poland isn't prolife, I see it as evidence that they need to try again with a different bill.

[Proteus_MST]

If, as you stated, pro abortion people were the majority of the population, shouldn't the counter-petition get more signatures?

What I state is, that the anti abortion people have more active organisation (like the catholic church and pro life organisations) that tell their members about the existence of the petition.
I doubt that the people who want to keep the status quo of abortion laws have any active oprganizations (why would they, after all it has been the status quo for a quarter century) ... and therefore a smaller percentage of possible signators would know about the counter petition than the ones who know about the petition (especially if the catholic priests also took care to made the petition (for stricter abortion laws) known within their parishes)

You can only sign a petition you know about

[Ben Kenobi]

What I state is, that the anti abortion people have more active organisation (like the catholic church and pro life organisations) that tell their members about the existence of the petition.

Then that would also be an argument that prolifers hold their beliefs more strongly.

I doubt that the people who want to keep the status quo of abortion laws have any active oprganizations (why would they, after all it has been the status quo for a quarter century) ... and therefore a smaller percentage of possible signators would know about the counter petition than the ones who know about the petition (especially if the catholic priests also took care to made the petition (for stricter abortion laws) known within their parishes)

I'm honestly not seeing the support when it's 2:1.

[Ming]

Still not proof... Heck, if you are going to argue with that lame logic while ignoring the one poll... One could argue that with the vote being 352 to 58, it's not even close.
But the vote isn't proof either.

So please provide some actual proof instead of just making stuff up and ignoring the one poll that was done.