Marianne has a naked breast because it’s an allegory, you cretin

[Bereta_Eder]

The French prime minister has drawn criticism for suggesting that naked breasts are more representative of France than a headscarf, in the latest flare-up of the bitter political row over the burkini.

Tottally agree on that specific issue.
Boobs

On passing that into law though, that seems a bit totalitarian (even though on a personal level it has everyone's agreement)

[Bereta_Eder]

And I agree this seems completely alien/oppressive





A small question though. Would the cops undress those too?

[Bereta_Eder]

oh


Government faces dilemma over whether to enforce ruling that banning burkinis violates ‘fundamental freedoms’

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/28/french-mayors-burkini-ban-court-ruling

so it's settled then.

ban ruled illegal

[Bespin]

I've got a french collegue who explained to me how this is a very hard topic to talk about because of the attitude many french people hold towards religion. For many people in France religion is something incredibly private, not to be shown in public. For example, in some public schools it is not allowed for muslims, nor christians, to wear any religious symbols at all. Religion is something you practice either at your mosk/church/home.

So this Burkini-ban is more than just racism towards Mulsims.

[Bereta_Eder]

yeah france is very secular

in schools you aren't allowed to wear a cross or any other religious symbol that is visibly showing, such as a veil


however this is about personal freedom to dress as you want

also bare in mind the numbers.

france has a lot of muslims.

so maybe in iceland one or two burkinis on the beach (assuming it's above freezing) wouldn't make a big difference.

it's got to do with the speicific realities and culture dispositions of each country

[Ming]

I've got a french collegue who explained to me how this is a very hard topic to talk about because of the attitude many french people hold towards religion. For many people in France religion is something incredibly private, not to be shown in public. For example, in some public schools it is not allowed for muslims, nor christians, to wear any religious symbols at all. Religion is something you practice either at your mosk/church/home.

So this Burkini-ban is more than just racism towards Mulsims.

I call BS... it's all just a lame excuse to practice discrimination.
We aren't talking about wearing "religious symbols"... just cloths to cover their body. If people want to associate Muslims with covered bodies, that's their problem.
They are NOT practicing their religion... THEY ARE SWIMMING!
The French Government aren't the fashion police. The women wish to cover their bodies while swimming. So what's the problem.

[Bespin]

I call BS... it's all just a lame excuse to practice discrimination.
We aren't talking about wearing "religious symbols"... just cloths to cover their body. If people want to associate Muslims with covered bodies, that's their problem.
They are NOT practicing their religion... THEY ARE SWIMMING!
The French Government aren't the fashion police. The women wish to cover their bodies while swimming. So what's the problem.

Sometimes things aren't as simple as you might want to think it is. Cultural values has a great impact on any of our thinking.

In this case, the burkinis are a religious symbol because it is closely tied to islam (if you want a greater understanding I recommend to read up on symbolism and semiotics/hereustics), ergo something that is frowned upon in the public space.

I know it is easy to sit here on a forum and call racism, or discrimination, but try to understand and see the cultural norms and values before doing so.

Myself I am not condoning these actions in any way or shape, I strongly believe in the individuals right to freedom of right, speach and fredom of press. However, I also try to understand the social structures in where something like this happens in order to get a more nuanced picture of it all. I don't come from France, as such I do not share their values and norms, but I try to understand them. Life isn't black or white, it's more of a greyscale.

[Bespin]

I call BS... it's all just a lame excuse to practice discrimination.
We aren't talking about wearing "religious symbols"... just cloths to cover their body. If people want to associate Muslims with covered bodies, that's their problem.
They are NOT practicing their religion... THEY ARE SWIMMING!
The French Government aren't the fashion police. The women wish to cover their bodies while swimming. So what's the problem.

Sometimes things aren't as simple as you might want to think it is. Cultural values has a great impact on any of our thinking.

In this case, the burkinis are a religious symbol because it is closely tied to islam (if you want a greater understanding I recommend to read up on symbolism and semiotics/hereustics), ergo something that is frowned upon in the public space.

I know it is easy to sit here on a forum and call racism, or discrimination, but try to understand and see the cultural norms and values before doing so.

Myself I am not condoning these actions in any way or shape, I strongly believe in the individuals right to freedom of right, speach and fredom of press. However, I also try to understand the social structures in where something like this happens in order to get a more nuanced picture of it all. I don't come from France, as such I do not share their values and norms, but I try to understand them. Life isn't black or white, it's more of a greyscale.

[Bespin]

I call BS... it's all just a lame excuse to practice discrimination.
We aren't talking about wearing "religious symbols"... just cloths to cover their body. If people want to associate Muslims with covered bodies, that's their problem.
They are NOT practicing their religion... THEY ARE SWIMMING!
The French Government aren't the fashion police. The women wish to cover their bodies while swimming. So what's the problem.

Sometimes things aren't as simple as you might want to think it is. Cultural values has a great impact on any of our thinking.

In this case, the burkinis are a religious symbol because it is closely tied to islam (if you want a greater understanding I recommend to read up on symbolism and semiotics/hereustics, I can even provide you with examples of good books in the fields), ergo something that is frowned upon in the public space.

I know it is easy to sit here on a forum and call racism, or discrimination, but try to understand and see the cultural norms and values before doing so.

Myself I am not condoning these actions in any way or shape, I strongly believe in the individuals right to freedom of right, speach and fredom of press. However, I also try to understand the social structures in where something like this happens in order to get a more nuanced picture of it all. I don't come from France, as such I do not share their values and norms, but I try to understand them. Life isn't black or white, it's more of a greyscale.

[Bespin]

Sometimes things aren't as simple as you might want to think it is. Cultural values has a great impact on any of our thinking.

In this case, the burkinis are a religious symbol because it is closely tied to islam (if you want a greater understanding I recommend to read up on symbolism and semiotics/hereustics), ergo something that is frowned upon in the public space.

I know it is easy to sit here on a forum and call racism, or discrimination, but try to understand and see the cultural norms and values before doing so.

Myself I am not condoning these actions in any way or shape, I strongly believe in the individuals right to freedom of right, speach and fredom of press. However, I also try to understand the social structures in where something like this happens in order to get a more nuanced picture of it all. I don't come from France, as such I do not share their values and norms, but I try to understand them. Life isn't black or white, it's more of a greyscale.

[Elok]

Drawing a distinction between "practicing your religion" and "everyday life" in the first place is intrinsically problematic. It assumes (as is increasingly common) that there's a sort of secular consensus reality we all live in, and religious people have this odd little set of additional beliefs that can be neatly compartmentalized, like some sort of obscure fandom, and practiced invisibly. Does it even need to be said that this is greatly at odds with the actual mission of every significant religious movement or organization? Essentially laicite demands that religious French people be hypocrites in the name of good citizenship. Up till now, apparently, the bulk of French believers have been happy to comply. The Muslims are feeling rather less cooperative? Good for them.

[Ben Kenobi]

nope

its religious freedom if she wants to wear one

and you oppose her religious freedom

So how do you distinguish between the two when a muslim woman can be killed for not wearing one - in a western country to boot!

[Ben Kenobi]

Most Muslims do not support terrorists. Why blame all Muslims. Oh, that's right, you are simply a bigot and hate all Muslims.

Right. So I'm a bigot for pointing out the fact that it's muslims who've been committing terrorist attacks on France. Why, if it is a purported 'religion of peace' are they doing it? Given that they are about 2 percent or so of the population, why do we keep seeing terror attack after terror attack.

Here's a clue. The religion teaches that terror against the infidel is good. How do you reconcile this belief with 'religious freedom'? You can't. Muslims will have to change if they want to stay in the west.

If they continue to commit terrorist attacks, all of them will be deported. If the peaceful ones want to stay they are going to have to start calling out members of their own community for this bull****.

Ming - a Catholic priest was executed performing a mass. In France. Should we just stand around and take it?

[Ming]

Right. So I'm a bigot for pointing out the fact that it's muslims who've been committing terrorist attacks on France. Why, if it is a purported 'religion of peace' are they doing it? Given that they are about 2 percent or so of the population, why do we keep seeing terror attack after terror attack.

Here's a clue. The religion teaches that terror against the infidel is good. How do you reconcile this belief with 'religious freedom'? You can't. Muslims will have to change if they want to stay in the west.

If they continue to commit terrorist attacks, all of them will be deported. If the peaceful ones want to stay they are going to have to start calling out members of their own community for this bull****.

Ming - a Catholic priest was executed performing a mass. In France. Should we just stand around and take it?

No... we shouldn't stand around and take it. We should go after the terrorists... not innocent Muslims.
Most Muslims are peaceful... just like most Catholics don't rape children.
You can't blame all for the acts of some.

[Bespin]

I call BS... it's all just a lame excuse to practice discrimination.
We aren't talking about wearing "religious symbols"... just cloths to cover their body. If people want to associate Muslims with covered bodies, that's their problem.
They are NOT practicing their religion... THEY ARE SWIMMING!
The French Government aren't the fashion police. The women wish to cover their bodies while swimming. So what's the problem.

I call BS... it's all just a lame excuse to practice discrimination.
We aren't talking about wearing "religious symbols"... just cloths to cover their body. If people want to associate Muslims with covered bodies, that's their problem.
They are NOT practicing their religion... THEY ARE SWIMMING!
The French Government aren't the fashion police. The women wish to cover their bodies while swimming. So what's the problem.

Sometimes things aren't as simple as you might want to think it is. Cultural values has a great impact on any of our thinking.

In this case, the burkinis are a religious symbol because it is closely tied to islam (if you want a greater understanding I recommend to read up on symbolism and semiotics/hereustics), ergo something that is frowned upon in the public space.

I know it is easy to sit here on a forum and call racism, or discrimination, but try to understand and see the cultural norms and values before doing so.

Myself I am not condoning these actions in any way or shape, I strongly believe in the individuals right to freedom of right, speach and fredom of press. However, I also try to understand the social structures in where something like this happens in order to get a more nuanced picture of it all. I don't come from France, as such I do not share their values and norms, but I try to understand them. Life isn't black or white, it's more of a greyscale.