Is is better for a society to be mostly Christian or not?

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes Berz, in Benland if one Christian does a good thing, you get to ignore the thousands of Christians doing very bad things over centuries

Why shouldn't I be proud of what Wilberforce did? My ancestry is British.

[kentonio]

Why shouldn't I be proud of what Wilberforce did? My ancestry is British.

Because you want to bizarrely feel pride for something a long dead man with no connection to you did, yet you don't apply that same principle to the shameful actions of long dead people you have just as much of a connection too.

[Berzerker]

I was referring to Wilberforce, Berz.

I'm responding to the OP and Wilberforce aint American, he didn't abolish slavery here

[Ben Kenobi]

Because you want to bizarrely feel pride for something a long dead man with no connection to you did, yet you don't apply that same principle to the shameful actions of long dead people you have just as much of a connection too.

Are you suggesting that my family was wealthy enough to own slaves? We were farmers.

[kentonio]

Are you suggesting that my family was wealthy enough to own slaves? We were farmers.

So about as much connection as you have to Wilberforce then.

[Ben Kenobi]

So about as much connection as you have to Wilberforce then.

Other than him being Parliament and representing Yorkshire which is where my family is from, absolutely nothing

[kentonio]

Other than him being Parliament and representing Yorkshire which is where my family is from, absolutely nothing

So no connection at all then, unless you also want to claim a connection to the Yorkshiremen of the time who were profiting from the slave trade.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now we've gotten to the point why you question why Yorkshiremen should be proud of Wilberforce? I should think it obvious. Prominent citizens are always celebrated.

[kentonio]

I was born 5 miles from the Yorkshire border and spent many years living in Sheffield. I have considerably stronger links to both Britain and Yorkshire than you, yet the idea of feeling pride for someone else's achievements makes no sense at all to me. I admire Wilberforce, I don't see why I should be able to claim some tenuous link to the brave and tireless work he did. I didn't do it.

[Ben Kenobi]

I was born 5 miles from the Yorkshire border and spent many years living in Sheffield. I have considerably stronger links to both Britain and Yorkshire than you, yet the idea of feeling pride for someone else's achievements makes no sense at all to me. I admire Wilberforce, I don't see why I should be able to claim some tenuous link to the brave and tireless work he did. I didn't do it.

Then why are you slagging him off? I see no point to it. There's nothing wrong with celebrating what the man did and what he accomplished.

I wouldn't slag you off for being justifiably proud of an Englishman who did something remarkable.

[Kidlicious]

Any kind of progress that isn't along the lines of "how many Christians do you have?"

Your claim that China hasn't progressed is absurdly stupid.

Not talking about economic development.

[kentonio]

Then why are you slagging him off? I see no point to it. There's nothing wrong with celebrating what the man did and what he accomplished.

I wouldn't slag you off for being justifiably proud of an Englishman who did something remarkable.

Quote a single instance of me slagging him off. You can't, because I have a huge admiration of the man and his work. What I take issue with however is your attempt to claim that him being a Christian means you can conveniently ignore the much larger role Christians played in actually running the slave trade for centuries.

It's the same thing as you and every other discussion about Christians in history. I honestly don't understand why you can't just accept they did some really ****ty things in the past. Everyone else, including several popes have had no problem accepting that.

[kentonio]

It's particularly dumb, because you have a much stronger argument right there, by just saying that like most things in life people have often misused religion, yet people like Wilberforce are examples of how it can inspire people to acts of courage and greatness too.

[Kidlicious]

Well, lets look at medieval times.
At those the muslim countries were more developed than western christian countries.
Why? Because the Sultans at this times had some rudimentary early form of religious freedom, alloweda certain freedom for science (well, more freedom than in the christian western world) and also made good use of experts regardless of their religion.

It all changed when during the renaissance greek/roman humanist values were rediscovered and afterwards the christian church lost more and more influence on western society (and its government).

I would say it clearly shows one thing:
It is best for society if the influence of religious fundamentalists (regardless of religion) is kept as small as possible and (most importantly) when government and religion are strictly separated


Had the church kept the influence on western society and governments it had during medieval times, I am sure that we our scientific progress would be backwards by around 1-2 centuries .... and very likely we would still be living in a feudal society (with a class of heridatory nobility that rules the country)

I attribute it more to the rise of Protestantism, especially what you call extremists. Without the Reformation toleration would have been delayed as you say. With so many difference denominations people had to learn tolerance, do or die.

Christians were persecuted by Pagans. Pagans were not tolerant, as you say. Btw, which classical philosopher do you claim influenced tolerance more than the Bible.

[Ben Kenobi]

I attribute it more to the rise of Protestantism, especially what you call extremists. Without the Reformation toleration would have been delayed as you say. With so many difference denominations people had to learn tolerance, do or die.

Renaissance predates it by two centuries.