Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Giancarlo]

Problem I have to deal with? And what problem is that? Your delusional ****ed up fantasies about the supposed end of society?

You ****ing moron. Scalia was wrong. And this nation will become even more powerful with equality and the isolation and removal of conservatism. Conservativism is a cancer that could kill democracy itself.

You just hate it because LGBT people are becoming more and more accepted by a vast majority of people. You hate that. You think it will end everything. You are a paranoid and delusional fool.

Everything you stand for is morally wrong, anti democratic, destructive and possibly authoritarian. You are vile!

[Giancarlo]

Western society isn't really doing very well right now - by any stretch of the measure. Rome fell, we can too. I don't see the snide comments about, "why don't you go to Islam" as very funny in a climate where we have muslim only swimming days on Fridays in London. We're going to have to make a choice, what we value more about western society. All of us.

Piece of ****. Western society is doing fine. You aren't. You think things are failing because you hate equality. You can't stand to see others being treated with respect. You are a shameful vile man.

You are a repulsive disgusting man the way you wish violence onto me and others.

[Berzerker]

Yep. Sex outside of marriage = fornication, while it gets you sex is not the purpose for which sex was designed.

Sex wasn't designed for marriage

Again, natural order!= nature. That's why I quoted Aquinas - it's his argument that there's a distinction between the two - it's where Natural law, and the concept of rights come from.

The natural order is nature, nothing in nature is unnatural. You could just as well argue that marriage is a sin because its rare in nature while sex is not.

You're thinking of it backwards - what the church does is define what is the appropriate purpose and place for sex and then says that everything outside of that is sin. It doesn't matter who does it or where it's done, unless it fits with sex between one man and one woman in a marriage, it's sin.

Yes, the Church sez this and it sez that... But why is it a sin? Earlier in the thread you claimed morality cant be defined by our choices but you've consistently argued morality is defined by the choices of people in your Church with whom you agree. Why does Aquinas (and you) get to define morality for everyone else if morality cant be defined by his choices?

[kentonio]

You seem to think that I have a high opinion of myself. Why, I am not sure.

Mostly because you act like an incredibly arrogant *****. Glad to help.

[kentonio]

I must admit, now that Ben has outed himself as an unrepentant criminal, I'm very much looking forward to the next law and order thread.

[Proteus_MST]

...

The reason conservatives have argued so hard against changing these parts of society is because they see society as a fabric - that it is all interconnected with each other. Weaken parts of the natural order, and that weakens other parts. It makes other things more common.
...

I am sure, that conservatives argued in the same fashion, when they opposed womens suffrage, the abolishment of slavery or the end of racial segregation

[Ben Kenobi]

I am sure, that conservatives argued in the same fashion, when they opposed womens suffrage, the abolishment of slavery or the end of racial segregation

WRT slavery, there were many who argued that it weakened American society, that men should work for themselves, not have others work for them, and that this would be decisive in the civil war. There are lots of articles on the plantation economy of the south and how the fact that the South kept slavery would lose it for them in the end. Or just quote Sam Houston...

The irony is that today, we see the opposite argument - as the business economy of the northern states has rusted out - they've moved south to more favorable economic climates. It's why Ohio in particular and Michigan have lost all the advantage they had with 100 years of economic prosperity, and the south has caught up to both.

Women's suffrage is an interesting argument because states like Wyoming had it while states that are generally considered more liberal are not - has to do with the west and differences in society. Women were expected to do more and had to in order to be successful in these states.

As for racial segregation - it was ultimately disastrous for the southern states as they lost industrial capacity to northern states - with freedom of movement it simply doesn't work. Then you have folks like Dr. King arguing about the content of character being the measure of a man.

There are solid conservative arguments for the extension of the franchise, of the superiority of republicanism, etc. The standard liberal democrat narrative is not the truth. It was republicans that pushed all of these things through and Democrats whom opposed them.

[Ben Kenobi]

Sex wasn't designed for marriage

Christ makes the argument that men were created male and female, ergo there is a purpose for their union in sex.

The natural order is nature, nothing in nature is unnatural. You could just as well argue that marriage is a sin because its rare in nature while sex is not.

And I could argue that human society is defined as constraining nature and advancing the concept of a natural order. Of course, that's not a popular argument these days, but then that's a product of the 60s on.

Yes, the Church sez this and it sez that... But why is it a sin? Earlier in the thread you claimed morality cant be defined by our choices but you've consistently argued morality is defined by the choices of people in your Church with whom you agree. Why does Aquinas (and you) get to define morality for everyone else if morality cant be defined by his choices?

God gets to define sin because ultimately all sin is against God.

[Ben Kenobi]

Western society is doing fine. You aren't. You think things are failing because you hate equality. You can't stand to see others being treated with respect.

Western society hasn't been the same since 1914. That was when it peaked. America's peak was probably in the 50s, early 60s in terms of dominance of the world and economics. America has declined less than some for sure, but that's not been the case in recent years.

Prior to 2008, I'd have argued that America was well positioned to take advantage of weaknesses in Europe and weaknesses in China and Japan. Now, debt wise - since the debt has more than doubled, America's advantage has been lost. It's a real shame that you and I will end up paying for the largesse today.

You think things are failing because you hate equality

No, I think things are failing... because things are failing. There hasn't been a successfully introduced new fighter plane in 35 years, Giancarlo. The US has lost a significant portion of their advantage over other countries in that time.

[Ben Kenobi]

And this nation will become even more powerful with equality and the isolation and removal of conservatism

And how do you plan to do that, Gian?

[Ming]

Christ makes the argument that men were created male and female, ergo there is a purpose for their union in sex.

Fine for Catholics and those religions that believe in a similar fashion, but some religions disagree... And then there are those that don't believe in God.
So what Christ said is kind of meaningless to many people. Fortunately we live in a country where one religion can't dictate morality.

And I could argue that human society is defined as constraining nature and advancing the concept of a natural order. Of course, that's not a popular argument these days, but then that's a product of the 60s on.

Simply an opinion... and as you point out, most people would disagree with you... and for good reasons.

God gets to define sin because ultimately all sin is against God.

And which God is that? There are many religions, and many gods... every one believes that their God (or Gods) is the right one.
And many religions don't see homosexuality as a sin. That is why we have religious freedom. And that doesn't mean just freedom for Catholics.
So yeah, the Catholic God defines sins for Catholic, but not for other religions.

[Giancarlo]

Western society hasn't been the same since 1914. That was when it peaked. America's peak was probably in the 50s, early 60s in terms of dominance of the world and economics. America has declined less than some for sure, but that's not been the case in recent years.

This is of course false. America, today, has a far larger economy and a far bigger military than it did then. America has not declined at all. It doesn't surprise me a racist like you thinks the 1950s/60s were a better time.

Prior to 2008, I'd have argued that America was well positioned to take advantage of weaknesses in Europe and weaknesses in China and Japan. Now, debt wise - since the debt has more than doubled, America's advantage has been lost. It's a real shame that you and I will end up paying for the largesse today.

You might as well falsely blame Obama which I'd wrong. You are clueless about economics. Stupid in fact. And you need to stop talking for me. It is really annoying. I am not going to end up paying for anything and Obama has done quite a good job.

No, I think things are failing... because things are failing. There hasn't been a successfully introduced new fighter plane in 35 years, Giancarlo. The US has lost a significant portion of their advantage over other countries in that time.

I don't think things are failing because they aren't. Dispute that moron. And now you are talking about fighter planes. The F-22 comes to mind. And even the F-16 is demanded throughout the world. Take recent Russian and Chinese planes - not even close. You are just a war mongering idiot though and you love the 1950s/60s... A time when this nation was almost on the brink of nuclear war with the Russians. A time when African Americans were lynched. A time when people like me were mentally and physically tortured.

You are one sick man!

[Giancarlo]

The irony is that today, we see the opposite argument - as the business economy of the northern states has rusted out - they've moved south to more favorable economic climates. It's why Ohio in particular and Michigan have lost all the advantage they had with 100 years of economic prosperity, and the south has caught up to both.

No they haven't. Lulz. Look at the GDP growth map I posted earlier. The South is suffering from low GDP growth and has been for years now. The South is an economic dump and has very low wages and high unemployment. To reality is most businesses are moving to New England or the West coast. Not to the South. And the one state they are arguably moving to is becoming more liberal and democrat (Georgia anyone?).

The South is not even close. And continues to suffer from a poorly educated workforce, piss poor infrastructure and ignorant politics.

There are solid conservative arguments for the extension of the franchise, of the superiority of republicanism, etc. The standard liberal democrat narrative is not the truth. It was republicans that pushed all of these things through and Democrats whom opposed them.

You keep telling that lie to yourself. Apparently you are delusional enough to believe it. Lying liar is back at it. Yoy are a historical revisionist and it seems to me your history degree is failing you once again.

[Giancarlo]

And how do you plan to do that, Gian?

Well I don't need to do anything. The idiots who hold beliefs like your own are all peeling over from old age.

This nation is better than ever for adopting equality, and that is something liberals and Democrats have pushed hard for. You sound more like Trump now with your fake rants about how weak America is and how you want to make it "great" again.

The question is... Great for whom? Surely not for someone you hate... Like me.

You are part of a diminishing and dying belief system. I will just sit back and enjoy the show. Not only does this idiot know nothing about debt or economics, he is now lying about his actual intentions. The subjugation and oppression of people who are different than him.

Ben is the most dangerous type of person. I'm glad he lives in Texas. Conservatism is not right and causes paranoid delusions.

[kentonio]

No, I think things are failing... because things are failing. There hasn't been a successfully introduced new fighter plane in 35 years, Giancarlo. The US has lost a significant portion of their advantage over other countries in that time.

You think things are failing because you're an idiot. Apart from the F22 which Fez already mentioned and the upcoming F35, the future strategy for the US is moving away from fighters anyway. Directly piloted planes are likely to grow increasingly more irrelevant in the future as humans act as a barrier to how effective they can be. Expect to see automated fighter drones and bombers within our lifetimes, we're approaching a point where putting human lives at risk in the skies will become obsolete.

On a wider point, trying to judge a countries might on how often it produces a new type of hardware is dumb as balls. America has been so far ahead of everyone else for so long, that spending trillions extending that lead would be utterly and completely stupid. It's only stupid rednecks, retards and combinations of the two (Texans) that think that America is becoming weak (despite the fact it can still obliterate any non-nuclear country on the planet if it so chose, and could fairly easily win a conventional war against any of the others).