Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't care if people know I turned down your money because I think you're a douche. But every time you mention it I will just keep repeating that you will not walk you daughter down the aisle if she is gay and let people judge on their own who is the bigger monster. If you have no problem with that, keep trying to shame me with something that I am proud, feel free. And if you feel proud for not walking a gay child down the aisle and by doing so likely increase the odds that they would commit suicide due to your rejection, Fine. I'm not the one that has to live with that.

Why, if you think shaming is wrong, are you trying to shame me over my decision not to attend my brother's wedding? You know nothing about the circumstances.

I'm just amused that you're accusing me of bribery when it was the gift of three people. Seriously. If I wanted to bribe you, why would I get other people involved?

[Ben Kenobi]

Never said it was... that's you trying to put words in my mouth. They broke the law (which you keep seeming to ignore) and got fined. Maybe they shouldn't have broke the law... maybe they should read the penal code.

Unreasonable fines are regulated by the 8th Amendment.

Actually, legally this is perfectly permissible, if you're married to someone and they become a quadriplegic, and they are unable to perform, you can divorce them. Gee... how christian of you. Sickness and in Health... Hmmm...

Can. 1084 §1. Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature.

Marriage requires conjugality. No conjugality, no marriage. Only in your definition. I'm sure a quadriplegic with a loving wife would disagree with you.

And once again the Catholic church disagrees with you. At the point of the marriage. If the marriage is consummated than the bond is there.

Oh wait, you just quote the bible to point out the things that you disagree. And you ignore the bible... and only use it when it supports your point of view.

You just quoted the bible for stuff you disagreed with and claim to be a Christian. It's an argument that makes sense for an atheist, not someone claiming to be a Christian.

And why are you ignoring portions of the Bible... aren't you a Christian?

Why are you quoting parts of the bible that you disagree with while claiming to be Christian?

Nope... I supported it knowing that the time would come eventually... which it did.

So. You don't really believe that what the majority believe is what people ought to believe. Thank you Ming. Glad we got that cleared up.

I'm a man of principles... I support my gay friends, unlike you who claims you wouldn't even go to your own daughters wedding if she was gay.

We disagree on what constitutes supporting the person. For you, if someone were a gambling addict, you'd be taking them to the casino and getting mad when I suggest that might not actually be helping them.

Why are you the member of a religion you consider to be evil? Why are you a member of a religion that has done evil things?

"If I were to ask you to leave evil altogether, you would have to leave this world."

Now, answer the question. Why are you the member of a religion you regard as evil?

why are you the one that can dictate morality.

You just said, "I am a man of principles". Presumably you arrived at those principles from someone else teaching them to you? So am I. Our disagreement has nothing to do with what other people believe, and everything to do with principles.

I remember a time when if they broke the law and got arrested, they did what the law required of them.

Curious. So they believed that the jail sentences were just? Or did they fight them and seek to overturn them?

If they hadn't broken the law, there wouldn't be a fine. And gee, if you asked people whether they would want to pay money or go to jail, I know what most people would respond.

Answer the question, Ming. Were the sentences for sodomy the equivalent of 4 years in jail?

I support that if people break the law, they should pay the fine or do the time.

Would you agree with 125k fines for sodomy?

Gee... the rules of the site were violated and the site took action... You want to twist that into something it isn't, your problem.

If it violated the rules of the site why did they accept the application for crowdfunding?

but you are the one whining about Catholics getting crushed while you want to crush gays...

I would like to see justice done, yes. I find it amusing that for all the claims of 'tolerance' that you support a 125k dollar fine. Personally I think that excessive fines are going to drastically change people's opinions. Destroying people's livelihood isn't going to make people think well of the law. They will resist tooth and nail.

Islamic terrorists are targeting westerns... not specifically Catholics.

Question asked, question answered!

Deliberately leaving children in an institution instead of placing them in a loving home is simply wrong.

So you agree then that what the state of Massachusetts did was wrong?

All the children want is to be adopted and loved by somebody... but you would deny them that simply because of your bigotry against gays. That's not putting the child first.

Shutting down adoption services isn't making sure they are loved by somebody, Ming.

If there weren't bigots like you, no social experiment.

You should probably answer the question about Massachusetts that you keep avoiding. Personally I think it absolutely destroys your argument that 'it's about placing kids in loving homes'.

[Ben Kenobi]

you dont need a divorce to leave

Uh. Yeah, you do. Unless you like losing everything and paying spousal support.

As for contracts, that is a bizarre argument. Businesses have the freedom to choose whom they will do business with. If they did not have freedom of association, they wouldn't be able to turn down a contract.

[Giancarlo]

They offered to supply a plain cake. Their offer was declined. They offered to make the arrangements with a different bakery that was more than happy to supply them. This too, was declined.

You're right, this has nothing to do with a cake. It has everything to do with Sweet Cakes being owned by a Christian lady.

They are offering a public service and have done so to other couples. Your argument is the exact copy of the argument employed by George Wallace. Why should private businesses be forced to serve blacks? - This was the argument in the early 1960s. You're simply copying the same argument and changing the word around. It has everything to do with cakes. They didn't do anything of the sort. They denied a service and violated the law.

I thought the story was before that homosexual people were supposed to be tolerant, Giancarlo? You've demonstrated that is obviously not the case.

Oh that's funny. The religious right are the most hypocritical and intolerant out there. Why should I be tolerant of hatred and intolerance anyways?

Are you arguing that a black baker must supply a KKKake? If not, why not? People have the freedom to associate with whomever they choose. If I don't want to write an article that supports homosexual marriage... I don't have to write an article that supports homosexual marriage. That's what freedom should be.

You just responded with a red herring argument in an attempt to justify your own bigotry.

[Giancarlo]

Ben, your answers are quite vile. I wouldn't want you at my wedding either.

Not only do you know nothing about the Constitution, you don't understand history. You don't understand how you're repeating history with your responses.

You don't have an argument. They were providing a public service, and are expected to follow the law. Private businesses are regulated and do have to follow rules.

I roll my eyes when someone on the religious right complains we LGBT people aren't being "tolerant". Cry me a river... you guys have been throwing intolerance and hatred towards us for decades and you have actively pursued anti-LGBT laws. I can get fired in at least two dozen states simply for being gay. The religious right cries they are being discriminated against, yet are the ones pushing anti-gay laws and/or destroying laws on the book supposed to protect a targeted minority.

[Ming]

Unreasonable fines are regulated by the 8th Amendment.

You see them as unreasonable... The legal system doesn't.
It doesn't matter what you or I think, that's what was imposed.
They broke the law...

And once again the Catholic church disagrees with you. At the point of the marriage. If the marriage is consummated than the bond is there.

I don't care if the Catholic church disagree with me. Other religions and people don't agree. That's the whole point of religious freedom.
And those that support gay marriages are also supporting the law of the land. And frankly, if you think it's immoral, that's simple just your opinion and doesn't make it immoral.

You just quoted the bible for stuff you disagreed with and claim to be a Christian. It's an argument that makes sense for an atheist, not someone claiming to be a Christian.
Why are you quoting parts of the bible that you disagree with while claiming to be Christian?

You ignore stuff from the bible and you claim to be a Christian... it's a two edged sword.

So. You don't really believe that what the majority believe is what people ought to believe. Thank you Ming. Glad we got that cleared up.

You only believe that your Morality is the right morality. Thank you Bk, Glad we got that cleared up. Nobody else is allowed to have a view of morality that is different than yours.

We disagree on what constitutes supporting the person. For you, if someone were a gambling addict, you'd be taking them to the casino and getting mad when I suggest that might not actually be helping them.

Bad analogy. They are going to get married whether you are there or not... You not being there changes nothing.
In your world, they are going to hell anyway. So why don't you just support your family.

"If I were to ask you to leave evil altogether, you would have to leave this world."

Now, answer the question. Why are you the member of a religion you regard as evil?

Now, answer the question. Why are you a member of a religion that senior members of the church covered up the rapes of children by priests?

You just said, "I am a man of principles". Presumably you arrived at those principles from someone else teaching them to you? So am I. Our disagreement has nothing to do with what other people believe, and everything to do with principles.

Then fine, believe in your own version of morality... but let other practice what they believe. Fair is Fair. You don't have a lock on morality.

Curious. So they believed that the jail sentences were just? Or did they fight them and seek to overturn them?

They went to jail... whether they thought the sentences were just or not.
The laws were changed later, just like slavery was made illegal, and women were given the right to vote...

If the bakers fine for breaking the law is so unjust in your opinion, maybe the law will change in the future.
But right now, they lost their first appeal, and may or may not continue...

Answer the question, Ming. Were the sentences for sodomy the equivalent of 4 years in jail?

I don't know... I don't have the full list of all the cases of people sentenced for sodomy... and I have no intention of looking them.
But yet again, given the choice of a fine or jail time, most people would pay the fine.

Would you agree with 125k fines for sodomy?

Would you agree the bakers should go to jail?

If it violated the rules of the site why did they accept the application for crowdfunding?

I don't know... but it was clearly against site rules, and the site acted accordingly. You can try to spin some large conspiracy theory, but the FACTS are quite clear.
It was against site rules, and when it was noticed, it was shut down.

I would like to see justice done, yes. I find it amusing that for all the claims of 'tolerance' that you support a 125k dollar fine. Personally I think that excessive fines are going to drastically change people's opinions. Destroying people's livelihood isn't going to make people think well of the law. They will resist tooth and nail.

Personally, I hope the fines are going to drastically change people's opinions. I hope they understand that they can not discriminate against gay and get away with it.
The broke the law, and had to pay a fine... justice.

So you agree then that what the state of Massachusetts did was wrong?

No, I don't. It was the choice of the Catholic Institutions in Massachusetts to not follow the law.
If they don't want to follow the law, and stop helping children, they get treated like every other law breaker.

Shutting down adoption services isn't making sure they are loved by somebody, Ming.

By not following the law, they are the ones standing in the way of those children finding families.

Again, they are being shut down because they aren't following the law. It's that simple.

You should probably answer the question about Massachusetts that you keep avoiding. Personally I think it absolutely destroys your argument that 'it's about placing kids in loving homes'.

And you should answer the question that you keep trying to avoid. Which is better, a heartless institution or a loving family? I think it absolutely destroys your argument that the kids should come first.

[Berzerker]

Uh. Yeah, you do. Unless you like losing everything and paying spousal support.

Paying alimony doesn't mean you cant leave a marriage and married people can part ways without spousal support

As for contracts, that is a bizarre argument. Businesses have the freedom to choose whom they will do business with. If they did not have freedom of association, they wouldn't be able to turn down a contract.

Your argument was as follows: marriage is not a freedom of association because its a legal contract

therefore selling cakes is not a freedom of association because its a legal contract

[Kidlicious]

Actually the black backer I know probably would supply a KKKAKE. OF course I'm sure the cake would have a secret ingredient.
Make money off making them eat ****. Win Win. It would be worth the fine if he got caught.

Hmmmm... What does it say about you that you approve of such behavior, but you condemn the person who won't bake a cake?

[rah]

Why, if you think shaming is wrong, are you trying to shame me over my decision not to attend my brother's wedding? You know nothing about the circumstances.

I'm just amused that you're accusing me of bribery when it was the gift of three people. Seriously. If I wanted to bribe you, why would I get other people involved?

Shaming is fine if what's been done is worth shaming. Again, every time you bring it up you reinforce why I didn't take your blood money.
Why do you keep saying that I owed you something because of it? Looks like a duck, sounds like a duck.



You're a sick monster. I really don't care about your "CIRCUMSTANCES" of why you refused to support your own brother. When you say you would do the same to your own daughter, the only common factor I can see is the gay part. I'm sure if you thought god was telling you to kill them to prove your faith, that you would do that also. Sick sick sick sick sick.

GO F*** yourself.

[rah]

Hmmmm... What does it say about you that you approve of such behavior, but you condemn the person who won't bake a cake?

Yeah, it shows a slightly nasty side, but we are talking the KKK here. If people are comparing gays to the KKK, it says something worse about them, but we already know what that is.
And if they did this and it went to trial the difference would be that they would also me convicted but the punitive penalty would be a dollar.

[Kidlicious]

Yeah, it shows a slightly nasty side, but we are talking the KKK here. If people are comparing gays to the KKK, it says something worse about them, but we already know what that is.
And if they did this and it went to trial the difference would be that they would also me convicted but the punitive penalty would be a dollar.

I wouldn't compare gay people to the KKK, but I would compare them to muslims, or any other people who disagree with me. I would never do that to anyone just because they disagree with me.

[rah]

I was thinking that BK was the one using that comparison.

[Giancarlo]

People who compare us to the KKK don't have an argument. We LGBT people aren't taking rights away from anyone. The Christian right are perfectly fine taking away our rights though.

Ben's argument is one of desperation.

[rah]

Bigotry isn't an argument. It's fear.

"If black people robbed you, I'd not consider it prejudice for you to be angry at black people in general" - Ben Kenobi

[Kidlicious]

People who compare us to the KKK don't have an argument. We LGBT people aren't taking rights away from anyone. The Christian right are perfectly fine taking away our rights though.

Ben's argument is one of desperation.

You basically compare the Christian Right to the KKK. I wouldn't not bake you a cake because you're gay. I wouldn't bake you a cake because you're a liberal.