Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Proteus_MST]

You're confusing the issue. I'm not saying intentionally. You just are. There is a difference between actually causing harm and just offending people. You are mixing the two together. I would rather be offended and not have conformists telling me what I can't say because they don't know where to draw the line, and to be frank most of them are insane, just like a Westboro Baptist and a neonazi.

Are you O.K., with pupils bullying other pupils?

Because in this case there is often also no bodily violence involved, just the expression of free speech.
Nevertheless bullying has cost the lifes of many fine persons (via suicide), just because some classmates used their "right" to unrestricted free speech

Nowadays often refined in the form of cyberbullying

[Kidlicious]

Are you O.K., with pupils bullying other pupils?

Because in this case there is often also no bodily violence involved, just the expression of free speech.
Nevertheless bullying has cost the lifes of many fine persons (via suicide), just because some classmates used their "right" to unrestricted free speech

Nowadays often refined in the form of cyberbullying

Do know what people call cyberbullying these days? Basically anything someone doesn't like can and will be called cyberbullying. Of course I'm against tormenting children, even if it is done by other children. Don't forget that the bullies also have problems. Yes, there should be ruled against that in schools so that children can learn the right and wrong way to act. But children need to grow up. If they don't grow up by 18 years old they need to get on it, and no one should treat them like babies.

[Ben Kenobi]

Only because of discriminatory actions by a christian not the gay couple... So try again...

Fining a Christian baker 125k for refusing service is hurting Christians.

Sure... you have the freedom not to marry another guy... no one is making you. But if you want to discriminate, that's against the law. Try again.

It would be analogous to forcing me to write for a publication supporting homosexual marriage. A bakery has the right not to participate or to make a cake that offends their religious convictions. A black baker would not be forced to make a KKK cake.

We know you feel that way... You consider your religion as the only one that deserves religious freedom.

I'm surprised for someone who claims that they are a feminist that you support muslim men having 4 wives.

[Ben Kenobi]

Because nowadays women in the western world have equal rights (not thanks to the church, but rather thanks to the efforts of 3-4 generations of women),

Uh, Christianity teaches that men and women are equal. See Ephesians 5.

we don't have slavery anymore (again not thanks to religion (slavers loved to use the bible as justification on why slave holding is OK)),

The fellow who successfully banned the slave trade in Britain was William Wilberforce. Who was a Christian.

homosexuals can live their lifes free from oppression (again not thanks to the church), women aren't shunned anymore if they are divorced or have a child without being married (again not thanks to the church) and many many more examples

Ok, but that doesn't really answer my question. My question was an epistemological question - how do you know that the values of today are better?

[Jon Miller]

Quite interesting, for a book supposedly inspired by an all knowing god.
Perhaps the accounts in the bible in which certain other events (for example god establishing certain rules) are described are as vague (and possibly erroneous) as the accounts of Genesis and the flood.

It is great, you can actually study God and Christianity and Judaism and discover that Paul's letters were written a decade or two after Christ and that the other books of the NT were written all within a few more decades and that the OT events mostly happened despite the OT being compiled from stories and documents in most cases centuries after the events related.

Also, if you are a Christian, you discover that Christ is the Revelation of God providing a Revelation much more direct/etc then the ones in the OT that were obscured.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

I argue that homeschooling can lead to all forms of subcultures that can be harmful tro society ... not only Nazism, but also with religious background (like islam or christianity)

If homeschooling leads to Nazism, why did Hitler ban it?

Any man can get married to a woman. This is still true after the implementation of gay marriage ... so nothing is taken away from people who want to havwe the traditional marriage.

Yes, something is taken away. If you're a German, and the German state passes a bill saying that all Frenchmen are now considered to be citizens of Germany, what does it mean to be German?

There is the concept of dual citizenship ... a frenchman who has dual citizenship in france and germany also is treated as german, despite also being a frenchman. And as a frenchman despite also being a german.

But you can still distinguish between a German and a Frenchman. A bill stating that all Frenchmen are now Germans would claim that there is no difference between the two. You would also lose a definition of what it means to be German.

Nazis didn't ban homeschooling.

Nazis did ban homeschooling. Homeschooling was not permitted in Nazi Germany.

Because christians loved to quote the bible for it ... the dominance of the man over the woman.

Ephesians 5 explicitly says that a husband laying a hand on a wife is wrong.

I think that unrestricted freedom cannot exist, as ones definition of freedom all too often is contradictory to the freedom of others.
(for example the freedom to beat up jews or muslims or blacks goes against the freedom of jews and muslims and blacks, not to be beaten up ... and the freedom of thieves to steal conflicts with the freedom of other people, not to have their possessions stolen)
Therefore a set of rules has to be established, that serves the wellbeing of all people as well as possible

Great. That's word for word my argument as to why Germany should ban sharia.

Well, for the Quran there is the same thing as with the bible, that is, despite the lots of brutality and the dubious morals contained therein, it neither is forbidden, nor is there a sticker on it that says "Not for minors". Guess that's one privilegue religious books have in germany.

And that's part of my point. When the argument is over Islam and not over Nazism, I don't see how arguing that the ban on Nazism covers Islam. Germany treats the two differently.

Quite interesting, for a book supposedly inspired by an all knowing god.
Perhaps the accounts in the bible in which certain other events (for example god establishing certain rules) are described are as vague (and possibly erroneous) as the accounts of Genesis and the flood.

The bible is a collection of books, and Genesis itself has different authors. You can see it if you read Genesis up to the point where it talks about Abraham. There is nothing to suggest that the portion starting with Abraham is anything other than an eyewitness or near eyewitness account. All the portions before that are a collation of what were presumably much older accounts. I don't see how, based on this textual evidence, that one could say that because the Genesis account doesn't go into the same level of detail, that one would argue that this afflicts other parts of Genesis that are not as old.

From the documentary hypothesis it is concluded that the Pentateuch is derived from several sources and was redacted by the later ones of them.\

I would disagree. I believe that the Pentateuch has one source, Moses, but that the earlier parts of Genesis came from other sources.

We also find remainders of polytheist roots in somke of the passages ... for example "Elohim" which is Plural and not singular and therefore obviously refers to multiple deities.

That's a very facile explanation. At the very least, the oldest biblical manuscripts we possess have those passages as theos in the Greek.

[Jon Miller]

Ben, I do not like responding directly to you. But even the claims of tradition is that Genesis is not at all an eye-witness account but is rather written centuries (and millenia) after the events described (by Moses). Critical scholarship adds even more centuries (8?).

Fundamentalists say that God dictated Genesis to Moses, but there is nothing to support that position found in either the Bible or tradition.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, I do not like responding directly to you. But even the claims of tradition is that Genesis is not at all an eye-witness account but is rather written centuries (and millenia) after the events described (by Moses). Critical scholarship adds even more centuries (8?).

The same critical scholarship states that the Flood didn't happen and that the creation account is wholly allegorical. There is little point to me taking the critics on one point when they concede the points that I am arguing on the Flood and Creation.

Fundamentalists say that God dictated Genesis to Moses, but there is nothing to support that position found in either the Bible or tradition.

Tradition is pretty clear on the Moses writing the Pentateuch. From the textual evidence, I think it's clear at least the parts before Abraham were a collation from older sources. Sources much older than Abraham. Genesis is fascinating and doesn't receive enough respect.

[Kidlicious]

I argue that homeschooling can lead to all forms of subcultures that can be harmful tro society ... not only Nazism, but also with religious background (like islam or christianity)
:

Well this isn't really an argument. It's a suggestion. You're putting your faith in the majority, and those in power, and you're afraid of the powerless minorities. The danger is not of the powerless minorities. How are they going to take over society and implement this evil agenda that you are talking about?

The real danger is public school. In fact, in the US it's a very serious problem.

[Kidlicious]

Also, regarding public schools, they are created and run by the majority. Only the majority can change the schools, not individuals or minorities. The only recourse individuals have is homeschooling, to help their children not become idiots like so many who attend public schools.

[Ming]

Fining a Christian baker 125k for refusing service is hurting Christians.

Nope... just hurting the discriminatory baker...

It would be analogous to forcing me to write for a publication supporting homosexual marriage.

And NOBODY has been asked to ever do so... your point?

A bakery has the right not to participate or to make a cake that offends their religious convictions. A black baker would not be forced to make a KKK cake.

First... not even close. When did homosexuals ever hang christians from trees or burn down christian houses... What exactly have homosexuals done against christians.
I'm sure you will find far more examples of christians hurting gays.

I'm surprised for someone who claims that they are a feminist that you support muslim men having 4 wives.

Nice try... Frankly, if TRULY CONSENTING ADULTS are following their religion, it's their right to get married within the scope of their religion.

[DriXnaK]

Nope... just hurting the discriminatory baker...
It would be analogous to forcing me to write for a publication supporting homosexual marriage.
And NOBODY has been asked to ever do so... your point?

If they can force you to bake a cake in support of gay marriage, why can't they force you to write a publication in favor of it? Is this another instance of Ming picking and choosing what is allowed based on his judgement of morality?

First... not even close. When did homosexuals ever hang christians from trees or burn down christian houses... What exactly have homosexuals done against christians.
I'm sure you will find far more examples of christians hurting gays.

Isn't the premise the same though and you are once again just injecting your judgement of one being worse than the other and therefore one is defensible and one is not? This is the twisted logic of the left where you decide on a case by case basis what is offensive and what is not and then ban things according to your sensibilities. This is why you and Rah aren't really Republicans.

Nice try... Frankly, if TRULY CONSENTING ADULTS are following their religion, it's their right to get married within the scope of their religion.

Actually, a religion is not part of government and therefore has no rights associated with it. It's a private organization and if the Catholic church doesn't want to marry gays then they don't have to. Likewise, if gays want to go and start their own church/religion/organization and get married/unioned/whatever they decide to call it, they are free to do so. The problem is that you see government as a higher power and therefore you believe government should be the one to sanction marriage. Once again, you are not a Republican, you are an authoritarian leftist. The proper way to handle gay marriage is to allow both sides to do what they want. That includes preventing the IRS, insurance companies, and others from discriminating based on marriage status. Why do you hate freedom so much Ming? I guess that's why you became a mod.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Funny you should react that way to snark aimed at the people who keep feeding you, Kid - that smiley describes a major portion of my feelings about your troll slap-fights.

How much of all this name-calling you're doing lately is enjoying getting a rise out of people and how much is just being riled up in a contentious bullcrap election year?

[Kidlicious]

Funny you should react that way to snark aimed at the people who keep feeding you, Kid - that smiley describes a major portion of my feelings about your troll slap-fights.

How much of all this name-calling you're doing lately is enjoying getting a rise out of people and how much is just being riled up in a contentious bullcrap election year?

I'm not really riled up about the election. It's more bottled up rage. As for the way I feel about manginas, words aren't really enough, but I try. Your reaction says everything about you though.

[kentonio]

Ben, remember when we talked about the quote thing and adding =username? Yeah, that..