Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Jon Miller]

I didn't cite any particular research, but you dismissed what I said out of hand. That suggests you're lying to yourself about what you do and do not choose to dismiss. There's a wealth of psychological research (on cognitive biases) explaining why you might do that...

And it is because my default response to psychology, after years of experience, is disbelief. If physicists were always talking about faster than light neutrinos and cold fusion, people should do the same to us. We aren't, and the rare occasions we do talk about cold fusion or faster than neutrinos we make it clear that that we expect it to be wrong.

Psychology has lost the right to argue from authority (unlike, for example, physics). The study has to be described and understood before I give it any consideration. The same as other non-scientific fields.

JM
(At least one of the studies that appears to be well done is the one on unconscious biases and racism, although there are still places it should be improved.)
(Many medical studies are just as bad.)

[Kidlicious]

There's a good deal of evidence from research in psychology that shame is a particularly damaging emotion and that we would be wise to dole it out carefully or not at all.

Is this evidence avaiable?

[Ben Kenobi]

You believe the rest of us are morally obliged to follow your rules because "God" gave them to you.

No, I honestly believe that traditional marriage is a great benefit to society in general and is part of why western society has been as successful as it has.

So you support the baker's freedom of religion but not the gays getting married.

Just because a relationship isn't marriage doesn't mean that it has no value. That's part of the problem here. If everyone is married, no one is. There is a specific purpose of marriage, that homosexual marriage cannot fulfill. It doesn't sustain itself, it needs outside participation.

They dont get religious freedom in your book of rules

They are perfectly free to be with whomever they want to be. They are not free to force society to recognise their relationship as marriage.

I'm surprised you're not telling us they should still be jailed in Texas

Why? I think that freedom of association protects their right to be with whomever they want to be with.

Was God's punishment for gays limited to denying them marriage rights? What does your book of rules say about that? Are you following the rules?

Actually the bible is pretty clear that homosexuality is wrong. Like most things that are sinful, it has grave consequences for the participants.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Catholic Church says marriage is between a man and a woman.
Some Religions say it's ok for same sex couples to get married.

Yes, and? Sharia law says that a man can have 4 wives. Should we permit that in America?

Religious freedom says you are welcome to practice your religion.

To a certain extent. Some religious practices are banned in America.

So let the other religions practice theirs.
Or is only your religion allowed freedom.

What's wrong with western society holding that marriage is between one man and one woman for life?

[Ben Kenobi]

You can teach your kid at home everything you want, even in germany.
But homeschooling doesn't satisfy the compulsory school attendance that exists by law

A law, that was initiated by Hitler and remains on the books, contrary to freedom of association and religion.

Also homeschooling doesn't satisfy the requirements for getting a grade according to the german school system.

It is contrary to the natural right and duty of parents to educate their children.

Also, noone in germany wants to abolish the traditional marriage between a man and a woman. Even if homosexual marriages are introduced, heterosexual couples will still be allowed to marry as well.

You are abolishing traditional marriage, by arguing that things that are not marriage between one man and one woman are the same thing. If I were to argue that a Frenchman were a German in all aspects of German law, wouldn't that effectively abolish all distinctions between Germans and French?

Similarly noone will force the catholic church to perform homosexual marriages

No one was going to fine a Catholic baker 125k for choosing not to supply a homosexual marriage. And yet, sure enough it did happen.

... they will solely performed by the state (and churches who voluntarily allow such marriages in their parishes)

What is voluntary will become compulsory. That is how everything has gone down.

While I cited a lot of things happening in some muslim family, others aren't. DOmestic violence (i.e. beating of the wife by the husband) also happens in christian families ... and trying to control the life of the own daughter even when she is older than 18 also isn't muslim exclusive

Are you arguing that honor killings are something regularly practiced by Christians?

Aside from this ... I could also have mentioned other things that are bad for society (and might promoted in families who only homeschool) ...
for example the view of the Aryan race being superior over other races ... or the view that jews and blacks and disabled people should be killed or put into camps ... or the view that the holocaust was a lie by the allies ... and many more

You have a group of people that believes exactly that, in Sharia law - that Muslims have the only rights and that others who are not muslims are of a lower status. I don't see how that attitude is compatible with German law. Yes, I understand your concerns, but it was Hitler who banned homeschooling, because he believed it interfered with his indoctrination. He was right.

The catholic church is free to teach their kids everything it wants, outside of school.

In America, they are free to teach the catechism inside of class. Are Germans less free?

And AFAIK this is done ... Confirmands in german mainstream evangelical churches have a period of 2 years (prior to their confirmation) where they have to go to the confirmand school 2 afternoons a week (and get lessons about the christian religion by the local pastor of the parish). In the end they also have to pass some tests about basic bible knowledge, before they are allowed to attend to confirmation

Basic bible knowledge! again, is not the same thing. I know what we teach and it goes well beyond 'basic bible knowledge'. We want our students to have a solid grounding, particularly in

AFAIK the catholics in germany have something similar with their kids before communion.

Part of what I teach is communion prep.

Therefore the catholic church has every opportunity (outside of school) to influence the kids minds (outside of school)

Why not inside school too?

Wrong ... science changes ... not only with regards to theories, but also with regards to its methodology.

You are 100 percent wrong here. Empiricism is the same now as it was in the 17th century. Same principles, same method.

In the medieval times, for example, science was rather asystematic

Pasteur did not live in the middle ages.

... whereas nowadays scientific methodology is much better, with the requirement for peer reviews (before publication of articles in renowned magazines)

Peer review has nothing to do with empiricism. All empiricism requires is that the experiment can be replicated by others performing the experiment by the same methodology

, much more competition (meaning older theories get reviewed more often), the requirement for the repeatability of experiments (by other scientific groups in the world) and also better networking of scientists, especially thanks to the internet.

Repeatability hasn't changed, there is nothing barring Christians from adequately testing their empirical theories.

Science also has changed between the 19th century and the 21st one, as well as (by a great deal) our knowledge of the world

In knowledge, yes. But not in methodology. The same principles that apply to Pasteur apply today.

But usually they resolve the dilemma (between the contents of the bible and science) by cherrypicking from the bible and only taking those parts of the bible for true, that don't disagree with science and nowadays morals.

Have I cherrypicked, or directly addressed each of your points?

because I can neither accept certain biblical stories as true, nor can I accept a god who commands atrocities, punishes innocent people for things other people have done and also hands out death penalties to people who did nothing else than question the style of management by their leader.

No, quite simply, you believe you are right and God is wrong. There's nothing 'scientific' about that.

This actually might even be cheaper for the catholic church, as they have to pay money to the taxation agency, in order to have it collect the church taxes (instead of taxing it themselves). The catholic church obviously chose the more convenient method

They would be better off not participating whatsoever. But again, Bismarck was very clever.

[Berzerker]

No, I honestly believe that traditional marriage is a great benefit to society in general and is part of why western society has been as successful as it has.

Gay marriage doesn't abolish traditional marriage

Just because a relationship isn't marriage doesn't mean that it has no value. That's part of the problem here. If everyone is married, no one is. There is a specific purpose of marriage, that homosexual marriage cannot fulfill. It doesn't sustain itself, it needs outside participation.

Outside participation? If everyone is married no one is married? I dont think we have to worry about too many married people.

They are perfectly free to be with whomever they want to be. They are not free to force society to recognise their relationship as marriage.

Then Catholics are not free to force society to recognize their religious freedom and marriages

Why? I think that freedom of association protects their right to be with whomever they want to be with.

Is that the punishment for gays in the Bible?

Actually the bible is pretty clear that homosexuality is wrong. Like most things that are sinful, it has grave consequences for the participants.

You didn't answer my questions, was God's punishment for gays limited to denying them marriage rights? What does your book of rules say about that? Are you following the rules?

Yes, and? Sharia law says that a man can have 4 wives. Should we permit that in America?

Of course, there are Mormons with multiple wives and it should be permitted

To a certain extent. Some religious practices are banned in America.

And you support bans on religious freedom, so why are you complaining? Are you the only one who gets to decide which bans we need?

What's wrong with western society holding that marriage is between one man and one woman for life?

It violates our religious freedom and the establishment clause

[Ming]

What's wrong with western society holding that marriage is between one man and one woman for life?

Because some religions disagree with you... And they deserve the same freedom you demand for yours.
Typical BK... Only HIS religion is allowed religious freedom, not others...

[kentonio]

What's wrong with western society holding that marriage is between one man and one woman for life?

I was born and raised in Western society and think you should go stick your traditional lifetime marriage up your arse. You can stick your religious fundementalism up there too.

[kentonio]

What is happening is that you are getting Sharia law in parts of Germany, where sharia prevails over western jurisprudence.

This is complete bull****, Sharia doesn't prevail over western jurisprudence in any of the European countries. The 'Sharia Courts' that everyone (all the uneducated stupid ****s who didn't bother researching anything) has whined about for years, are actually just groups of religious experts who provide mediation to Muslims who want a religious answer to disputes. Couple of rather major points that the bigots always ignore..

1) They have absolutely no legal power, and cannot overrule any legal ruling or law.
2) Participation is completely voluntary for all parties.
3) If they delivered a solution that either party thought was unjust, they still have every right to go to a civil court for a legal ruling.
4) Orthodox Jews also have their own version of these mediation groups, but strangely very few people write scaremongering crap about how the Jews are trying to take over the country.

[ricketyclik]

Because some religions disagree with you... And they deserve the same freedom you demand for yours.
Typical BK... Only HIS religion is allowed religious freedom, not others...

And then of course there's the non-religious aspect of marriage... Civil ceremonies and all.

[ricketyclik]

Having said that, although in my legal framework I've had two marriages, I've not had a wedding nor any voluntary interaction with Church or State when it comes to my relationships with my spouses.

[Proteus_MST]

And then of course there's the non-religious aspect of marriage... Civil ceremonies and all.

Which of course is all, many (if not most) homosexuals want ... not the religious ceremony.
So they have some security when it comes to acceptance as family members of their partner (with regards to heritage and visiting him/her in hospital)

[Kidlicious]

"If everyone is married, no one is"
That doesn't mean what you think it does. If you want to believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman that's all that matters. Two men thinking they are married shouldn't change that. If it does it's because you don't really believe what you claim to believe.

[ricketyclik]

I agree, sort of, in that the concept of marriage that counts is between the parties involved, and no one else. Unless you're anally retentive and want some sort of external recognition of course, in which case you deserve all the derision coming your way.

[ricketyclik]

having said that, I think an objective legal framework is a good thing for when things go pear-shaped.