Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Ben Kenobi]

Where in that quote does it say you can discriminate against them?

It states clearly that marriage is between one man and one woman.

[Ben Kenobi]

especially since you keep posting in even when it isn't relevant to the discussion

Ah. A new argument. Now instead of arguing that I am lying you're arguing that "it's irrelevant". The Handwave argument. Must be nice to dismiss arguments that you don't like. Yes, it is quite relevant because the Catholic church is stating, clearly, that marriage is between one man and one woman.

So what the Bakers did was against the views of the Catholic church based on what your LEADER SAYS.

So you're arguing then that Catholic priests must do homosexual marriages or else they are discriminating against homosexual people?

Where did Francis say what the Bakers did was wrong? He did not. The Bakers were willing to supply them with a cake. They were unwilling to supply them a cake celebrating homosexual marriage. They have conscience rights and the Church clearly argues that conscience rights prevail.

Oh, and I said you were lying because you claimed I never read your post. So stop making crap up.

Is the catechism like garlic for you? You didn't even bother to actually *cite* the catechism in your argument that the catechism says X.

My argument wasn't that you didn't read it. My argument is that you didn't even recognise it was from the catechism because you are unfamiliar with it.

[Ming]

It states clearly that marriage is between one man and one woman.

And it clearly states that it's ok to discriminate against gays where?
It say's no such thing.

But yet again, you fail to follow the teachings of your Church and the Pope.

We can pull a ton of quotes from the bible regarding slaves, stoning, and other such nonsense that I don't see you quoting.
You are very selective in using the bible only to support your beliefs, and ignore the stuff that is just plain stupid.
Much of the teachings of the Bible are not relevant in today's world and are no longer followed...

[Ben Kenobi]

And it clearly states that it's ok to discriminate against gays where?

Isn't it you who stated that "marriage is between one man and one woman" is discrimination?

But yet again, you fail to follow the teachings of your Church and the Pope.

Which is why I'm citing from the catechism to show that yes, Catholics have freedom of conscience and that our freedom to express what we believe and work in accordance to what our conscience states prevails.

Much of the teachings of the Bible are not relevant in today's world and are no longer followed

Then you have conceded the argument that the Church does not teach it. You're now arguing that what the Church teaches is wrong. Different argument. You're certainly free to believe that because of freedom of conscience, just as the bakers are free to believe that the Catholic church is right.

The Catholic church is not going to compel you to support what we believe. However, by the same token, you cannot then argue for a 100k fine for Catholics practicing what we believe.

[Ming]

Ah. A new argument. Now instead of arguing that I am lying you're arguing that "it's irrelevant". The Handwave argument. Must be nice to dismiss arguments that you don't like. Yes, it is quite relevant because the Catholic church is stating, clearly, that marriage is between one man and one woman.

That quote is NOT relevant when it comes to discrimination. You can use it to support your argument that marriage is between one man and one woman, but NOT in the support of discrimination. Again, listen to your pope.

So you're arguing then that Catholic priests must do homosexual marriages or else they are discriminating against homosexual people?

Yet again, just making crap up. Please quote where have I ever said that Catholic priests must do homosexual marriages. That's right, you can't because I have never said that and have said that the Government can't and shouldn't force the Catholic church to do so. But I have said that Catholic church should not deny gays the right to be married by other religions that don't feel like the Catholic Church or the government. Religious freedom is freedom. If a religion believes that gays can be married, let them do it.

Where did Francis say what the Bakers did was wrong? He did not. The Bakers were willing to supply them with a cake. They were unwilling to supply them a cake celebrating homosexual marriage. They have conscience rights and the Church clearly argues that conscience rights prevail.

The bakers discriminated against the gay couple... So yes, what he said makes their actions wrong. He didn't say they had to believe that the marriage was valid, or that they weren't sinners... he said they shouldn't discriminate against gays... You can talk about "conscience rights" But it seems the Pope and the law of the land disagrees with you.

Is the catechism like garlic for you? You didn't even bother to actually *cite* the catechism in your argument that the catechism says X.

Again... just quoting the highest authority in the church... one more time and maybe this time you might actually read it.
""I repeat what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says: that they must not be discriminated against, that they must be respected and accompanied pastorally,"

I guess Catechism is garlic to the Pope... It wasn't my opinion, it was the POPE's.

My argument wasn't that you didn't read it. My argument is that you didn't even recognise it was from the catechism because you are unfamiliar with it.

Nice try... you said "because you've never read it"

I've read the catechism... and I've read your posts... so stop lying.
You aren't the only Catholic that has read catechism... It's possible that I've spent more time with catechism than you since I took classes on it for 8 years in a catholic school, took years of catechism classes while going to a public high school, and I have a minor in Religious Studies from college. So while I'm not be a mindless slave to catechism like you are, it doesn't mean I've never read it.

[rah]

I'm still waiting for where it says in that quote to discriminate against Gays.

I assume it will be a long wait since it doesn't.

And yes ben for the sake of argument we can all agree that the Church believes that marriage is between a man and a women. (in the catholic church)
No one is asking the church to marry gays in the church. What happens outside the church is different. You may voice you opinion on that and campaign however you want but you've lost that battle and the law says otherwise.

x-post

[Ben Kenobi]

Please quote where have I ever said that Catholic priests must do homosexual marriages. That's right, you can't because I have never said that and have said that the Government can't and shouldn't force the Catholic church to do so. But I have said that Catholic church should not deny gays the right to be married by other religions that don't feel like the Catholic Church or the government. Religious freedom is freedom. If a religion believes that gays can be married, let them do it.

Great. The Bakery is not denying the homosexual people a cake. They are free to go elsewhere and buy another cake from a different vendor. If you are arguing that the Catholic priests should have the right to decline to do a homosexual marriage, than so does the baker have the same right to decline to provide a cake for a homosexual marriage.

[Ben Kenobi]

I've read the catechism... and I've read your posts... so stop lying.
You aren't the only Catholic that has read catechism... It's possible that I've spent more time with catechism than you since I took classes on it for 8 years in a catholic school, took years of catechism classes while going to a public high school, and I have a minor in Religious Studies from college. So while I'm not be a mindless slave to catechism like you are, it doesn't mean I've never read it.

If you're not a mindless slave to it, why are you arguing from the catechism here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just argue that you *reject* the catechism where you believe that your conscience is correct and the Church is wrong?

[Ben Kenobi]

And yes ben for the sake of argument we can all agree that the Church believes that marriage is between a man and a women. (in the catholic church)
No one is asking the church to marry gays in the church. What happens outside the church is different. You may voice you opinion on that and campaign however you want but you've lost that battle and the law says otherwise.

Many people are arguing that the teachings of the Catholic church are discrimination and that the Church must do them whether they like to or not.

You may voice you opinion on that and campaign however you want but you've lost that battle and the law says otherwise.

Where does Oberfell state that the bakery is required to bake cakes for a homosexual wedding? Oberfell says nothing of the sort.

[Ming]

Great. The Bakery is not denying the homosexual people a cake. They are free to go elsewhere and buy another cake from a different vendor. If you are arguing that the Catholic priests should have the right to decline to do a homosexual marriage, than so does the baker have the same right to decline to provide a cake for a homosexual marriage.

Don't agree with you.
Catholic priests shouldn't be forced to perform a sacrament that is against their religion.
That's religious freedom.

Baking a cake and decorating it is a business... not a religious sacrament or action.
Nobody is asking the bakers to perform a marriage... of partake in homosexual sex... They are being asked to serve a customer and not discriminate against them because they are gay.

Listen to your Pope... Oh, that's right, you claim to know more than he does about the Catholic faith...

[Ben Kenobi]

Catholic priests shouldn't be forced to perform a sacrament that is against their religion.

The problem is that many people are arguing that the Church must comply and do them.

Baking a cake and decorating it is a business... not a religious sacrament or action.

The bakery offered to supply a blank cake, arguing that while the request for the cake itself was not contrary to their conscience, decorating the cake in support of homosexual marriage was a violation of their conscience.

The First amendment is on their side. Catholics do not have freedom just in the Church, we have conscience freedoms and protection outside of the Church.

[Ming]

Many people are arguing that the teachings of the Catholic church are discrimination and that the Church must do them whether they like to or not.

First, a very small minority is saying that... and I don't, and it will never happen because of religious freedom in this country.
But on the other hand, religious freedom means that other religious can perform legal gay marriages, and the Catholic church has not right to stop them.

Where does Oberfell state that the bakery is required to bake cakes for a homosexual wedding? Oberfell says nothing of the sort.

Take it up with the court system. I've never claimed to be an expert on the law. But when it went to courts, they lost. And they were fined.
So I'll go with the courts on this one. And gee... how is that appeal going...

But one more time, the Pope says don't discriminate... and not decorating a cake because the couple is gay is discrimination, pure and simple.

[Ming]

The bakery offered to supply a blank cake, arguing that while the request for the cake itself was not contrary to their conscience, decorating the cake in support of homosexual marriage was a violation of their conscience.

The First amendment is on their side. Catholics do not have freedom just in the Church, we have conscience freedoms and protection outside of the Church.

Fast edit on your part. At least I got your original post quoted before you changed it.

And one more time... the courts so far disagree with your opinion. They ruled, and the bakers lost.

[Ben Kenobi]

First, a very small minority is saying that... and I don't, and it will never happen because of religious freedom in this country.

Just like Catholics were not forced to pay for abortion in this country? What religious freedom?

Obama has stated that the Catholic church should do homosexual marriage. Is Obama part of this 'small minority'?

But on the other hand, religious freedom means that other religious can perform legal gay marriages, and the Catholic church has not right to stop them.

Then why is Obama saying stuff like this?

In America, our progressive values are what sets us apart from the rest of the world. We simply cannot tolerate those who stand in the way of such advancement. The bigoted, and superstitious mindsets of the past have no place in our modern society. Excluding homosexuals from their civil rights is a stance that the federal government will not tolerate.”

http://nationalreport.net/obama-will-revoke-tax-exempt-status-churches-refuse-wed-gays/

I question your assessment that this is a 'small minority'. I would argue that a majority of so-called Democrats support it wholeheartedly.

[Ben Kenobi]

And one more time... the courts so far disagree with your opinion. They ruled, and the bakers lost.

Which courts and where? Oberfell said nothing about this.