Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[rah]

I think this thread is just one of the many that proves that it is.

[Proteus_MST]

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you suggesting that the Church is a democracy?

Well, I guess it is the pope who is supposed to tell catholics what to do ....
asking homosexuals for forgiveness, for example

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm talking about countries that have predominantly Catholic identified populations. Come on Ben... Surely your reading comprehension isn't this bad!

And? Right or wrong isn't determined by what people choose to believe. Right or wrong is right or wrong.

asking homosexuals for forgiveness, for example

You'll have to clarify - do you mean that we should apologize for the teachings of the Church that state that sodomy is a sin? Or should we apologize for stating that homosexuality is objectively disordered?

There is a distinction between the sinner and the sin. We can hate the sin without hating the sinner. Insofar as you conflate the two, I think it's important to ensure that the teachings of the church are conveyed in a loving manner. If that's what is meant, then sure. However - there is a disagreement on what fundamentally constitutes homosexuality. If you believe that it is a core part of the person, then it is impossible to reconcile that with what the Church teaches, that our sins are not a core part of who we are.

[Proteus_MST]

...
You'll have to clarify - do you mean that we should apologize for the teachings of the Church that state that sodomy is a sin? Or should we apologize for stating that homosexuality is objectively disordered?

There is a distinction between the sinner and the sin. We can hate the sin without hating the sinner. Insofar as you conflate the two, I think it's important to ensure that the teachings of the church are conveyed in a loving manner. If that's what is meant, then sure. However - there is a disagreement on what fundamentally constitutes homosexuality. If you believe that it is a core part of the person, then it is impossible to reconcile that with what the Church teaches, that our sins are not a core part of who we are.

Well, I guess what you forget is:
1. Homosexuality is not counted among psychological disorders anymore (since the 80s or 90s, when is was removed from the DSM). It is categorized as a sexual orientatioon now.

2. Before that time, homosexuals were a persecuted minority, who could expect to lose their jobs and/or evven be put in psychiatry for their sexual orientation (with, I guess, catholics also doing their part in it)

3. Many (if not most) homosexuals don't belong to the catholic church and don't share your belief in homosexuality being a sin. How would you treat a jew (who, after all, sins (according to your faith) by not accepting Jesus as his savior (and doesn't want to change his faith)). Would you treat him similar to a homosexual?

[Ben Kenobi]

1. Homosexuality is not counted among psychological disorders anymore (since the 80s or 90s, when is was removed from the DSM). It is categorized as a sexual orientatioon now.

And what, per se, does that have to do with the Church? The APA is not the Catholic church.

2. Before that time, homosexuals were a persecuted minority, who could expect to lose their jobs and/or evven be put in psychiatry for their sexual orientation (with, I guess, catholics also doing their part in it)

I challenged Ming to provide one example of a homosexual man being fined 125k for practicing sodomy in the United States. He has been unable to provide proof. The pendulum has now swung the other way.

3. Many (if not most) homosexuals don't belong to the catholic church and don't share your belief in homosexuality being a sin

Ok, and? How should that affect what the Catholic church teaches? If they are not Catholic then then are free to go elsewhere.

I like Jews, they are good people who, even if we disagree with Jesus have been kind to me. I have worked with some in the past and learned a lot from them. I don't see them starting threads on Apolyton attacking Catholics for believing that Jesus is the son of God.

[Giancarlo]

You are a lying horrid little man, ben. You only speak for yourself and not anyone else. You are so pathetic.

[Proteus_MST]

And what, per se, does that have to do with the Church? The APA is not the Catholic church.

You claimed that homosexuality is objectively a disorder.
The board of scientists that create the DSM IMHO is the most objective sourse one can find (and they disagree about it to be a disorder).
If you think it is a disorder in your opinion, that is, of course, different, opinions don't have to be objetive, after all

I challenged Ming to provide one example of a homosexual man being fined 125k for practicing sodomy in the United States. He has been unable to provide proof. The pendulum has now swung the other way.

Well, I don't know anything about this fine.
But if you want the name of one famous scientist who was convicted of homosexuality: Alan Turing
He was convicted of gross indecent behavior in GB in 1952 (for having a sexual relationship with a man) and was given the choice between prison or forced regular administration of a libido reducing drug.
He chose the libido reducing drug (and lost his job for the british SigInt)... and 2 years later he commited suicide.
I am sure that, with an open society like that of today, he might have lived many more productive years

Ok, and? How should that affect what the Catholic church teaches? If they are not Catholic then then are free to go elsewhere.

I like Jews, they are good people who, even if we disagree with Jesus have been kind to me. I have worked with some in the past and learned a lot from them. I don't see them starting threads on Apolyton attacking Catholics for believing that Jesus is the son of God.

And would you want their services/churches in the united states to be forbidden, out of fear that catholics get converted to the jewish religion (and therefore become sinners)?
If not, why not? After all it is not dissimilar to your fear about homosexuals being allowed to marry

[Giancarlo]

I'm proud of who I am. Being gay is part of my identity and me as a person. It is not and never has been wrong. The love I feel is just as valid as that expressed by a heterosexual man. I am not wrong morally. I am living honestly and true to myself.

LGBT people can and do lose their jobs simply because of who they are. Only a handful of States even have protections for LGBT people. People like Ben refuses to look at the merit of us and rather judge us to condemnation.

He is a shameless bigot. Homosexuality is not a disorder.

[rah]

You'll have to clarify - do you mean that we should apologize for the teachings of the Church that state that sodomy is a sin? Or should we apologize for stating that homosexuality is objectively disordered?

No one here is saying that you should apologize for the teaching of the church.
The pope is asking you to apologize for all the hate and to treat them like you would others. Seems quite clear, but you keep trying to say it means something else.
So much for the religion of love.

[Giancarlo]

How is homosexuality objectively disordered? Objectively speaking in the most civil way possible... You are so completely full of sh*t, Ben. And no, I am NOT being sarcastic. I am being 100% honest. I do not have a disorder. I sorted out my sh*t when I was younger and opened my mind. Maybe you should do the same.

I only love and I love someone of the same sex. He is so beautiful and is my other half. If I am disordered for simply loving another person in such an intimate and loving way... so be it!

The only disorder here is the virulent and cancerous bigotry one poster espouses.

[Giancarlo]

Well, I guess what you forget is:
1. Homosexuality is not counted among psychological disorders anymore (since the 80s or 90s, when is was removed from the DSM). It is categorized as a sexual orientatioon now.

It was removed in the 1970s.

Ben is a bigoted anti-science ass-hat.

Gay people are still heavily persecuted in many states (including in Texas).

And all this idiot Ben can say is: "The pendulum has now swung the other way"... what utter bull****. LGBT people still can get fired simply because of who they are in 30 states.

Religion is protected in all states. So who is the one protected more? Seems like Ben is smoking some serious ****.

[Berzerker]

Right or wrong isn't determined by what people choose to believe. Right or wrong is right or wrong.

do you mean that we should apologize for the teachings of the Church that state that sodomy is a sin?

Or should we apologize for stating that homosexuality is objectively disordered?

why is sodomy a sin and why is homosexuality objectively disordered and how did you make those determinations without making choices?

[Ben Kenobi]

You claimed that homosexuality is objectively a disorder.

The Catholic church has a different understanding of what constitutes "order" from the DSM. According to the Catholic church, natural order within sexuality is manifested through the union of one man and one woman. The reason that all other 'unions' are 'disordered' is because they do not have the same result as the union of men and women.

The board of scientists that create the DSM IMHO is the most objective sourse one can find (and they disagree about it to be a disorder).

We disagree with their assessment as to what constitutes 'order'.

If you think it is a disorder in your opinion, that is, of course, different, opinions don't have to be objetive, after all

The reality is that one union produces children, the other does not.

He was convicted of gross indecent behavior in GB in 1952 (for having a sexual relationship with a man) and was given the choice between prison or forced regular administration of a libido reducing drug.

Would prison have been the equivalent loss of 120k for Turing?

I am sure that, with an open society like that of today, he might have lived many more productive years

Sure. Ok, that doesn't change the fact that this was more than 60 years ago. Times change and the pendulum has swung the other way now.

And would you want their services/churches in the united states to be forbidden, out of fear that catholics get converted to the jewish religion (and therefore become sinners)?
If not, why not? After all it is not dissimilar to your fear about homosexuals being allowed to marry

We have at times been forced to join whatever protestant church was in power at the time. You seem to not think that Catholics are minorities in America.

[Ben Kenobi]

LGBT people can and do lose their jobs simply because of who they are. Only a handful of States even have protections for LGBT people. People like Ben refuses to look at the merit of us and rather judge us to condemnation.

Ah, bull****. Right to Work laws have nothing to do with homosexuality. I actually could care less if you're homosexual and working with me. I, however have lost jobs because of my faith and even had to leave to get work. You get a big fat zero sympathy from me.

[Ben Kenobi]

why is sodomy a sin and why is homosexuality objectively disordered and how did you make those determinations without making choices?

Aquinas' formulation of natural law is a framework by which Catholics determine well ordered behavior.