Catholic Answers

[kentonio]

Then I'd love to hear you speak of Islam the same way you do Christianity. That seems to be a challenge for you.

The reason you don't hear it as much is simply because everyone except for you sees it as just obvious. The only reason you hear so much about the bad stuff the Catholic church does, is because you personally keep trying to nonsensically defend it which causes long discussions. For most people its really not a difficult moral question. Slaughtering men, women and children is bad, m'kay?

What rails? I've stated that Islam invaded Christian areas, destroyed the holiest Church of the entire Christian faith, destroyed, enslaved, raped and imprisoned Christians in those areas since the 7th century and continues to do so today.

All of these are true statements. I'm not sure why you have an issue with true statements.

And the Christians did just as much to the Muslim world, and does far MORE today given that we keep invading their countries and killing hundreds of thousands of their people (when we're not starving millions more to death). For every religious building destroyed by the Muslims, you can find an equal Muslim one trashed by the Christians. For every killing, rape or wanton slaughter by the Christians, you can find one by the Muslims.

That is what is really sad though about your failure to grasp this stuff. You seem incapable of understanding that in that era basically everyone in a position of power acted like violent psychopaths, because it was about the only way to ensure you held onto power and didnt end up brutally murdered along with your entire family. By today's standards there simply weren't any good guys, and when you try and pretend there were, you end up in these super awkward situations where you're basically having to try and defend things like mass slaughter, rape and wanton destruction, just because it was your 'side' that did it.

Do you believe the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre is contrary to Islamic teachings?

I couldn't give a rats ass, I think you both believe a lot of primitive nonsense. Why would any of your fairy stories justify the horrors both sides carried out?

I see the dispute as one very different. You disagree because you are a member of the other team and believe that my beliefs are false, not meaningless.

No you see, I'm not a 'member of the other team'. I'm the one saying the sport is stupid and meaningless. The only reason you keep trying to claim atheists are part of the game is because you can't seem to wrap your head around the idea that to many of us the whole thing is idiotic.

[Ben Kenobi]

Said by the catholic cleric (and papal legate) Arnaud Amalric, when asked how to separate catholic from cathar inhabitants of Beziers, leading to the murder of all 10k-20k inhabitants of Beziers.

The only account that we have of the siege states that Amalric said no such thing and that the Crusaders themselves issued the order, (and no, they didn't phrase it as such). Nor does Innocent III say that. Short on facts long on legend as usual.

The only source we have for the claim, comes from a monk who had never met Amalric nor lived in France let alone Beziers. And I don't see the actual original available (just a terribly put together 'copy' with numerous errors.

[kentonio]

Why didn't Jesus tell the Centurion that what he does was wrong and go into a long speech on why serving in the army is a bad thing? He does not. In fact the opposite statement that, "one should remain as one is" comes into play here. Jesus also says, "I could call upon legions from heaven". If Heaven were pacifist, why are there legions in heaven? It makes no sense. Restraint from force is different from the removal of force altogether. Jesus talks about this all the time. Do not resist an evil person. Do good to one who oppresses you - do we not have an obligation to protect our brothers and sisters where we can?

You're making a classic argument from ignorance. He didn't say something, so you're presuming to fill in the blanks. As for 'legions from heaven' if you believe your god is omnipotent then bringing forth legions from heaven could be done with a click of his fingers, it wouldn't require some existing warlike state. The fact he used the word 'legions' when talking to a Roman, should also tell you something.

It's also worth adding that holding yourself to the same standards of behaviour as your god is pretty arrogant. God reserves the right of judgement to himself if you remember, so god being willing to use force if he chose does not give you any kind of license to do the same, any more than you are free to pass judgement.

[Ben Kenobi]

The reason you don't hear it as much is simply because everyone except for you sees it as just obvious. The only reason you hear so much about the bad stuff the Catholic church does, is because you personally keep trying to nonsensically defend it which causes long discussions. For most people its really not a difficult moral question. Slaughtering men, women and children is bad, m'kay?

Many would dispute that killing men and women who kill other people is a bad thing. Many would also dispute that killing a man or a woman in the process of assaulting and attempting to kill others is a bad thing. It is not so clear cut as you make it to be.

I defend the Catholic church mostly because the claims against her are rubbish. I'm a convert. I have routinely seen, time after time again that the charges are not only *false*, but generally that the Catholic church has good reasons for why things happened the way they did. I was a protestant ffs. Do you think I ever heard the Catholic side of things? No. Did I take the time to examine what the Catholic side of things actually was? Yes. And many times I found outrageous lies against the Catholic church that had no bearing to what the catechism actually said. What do you think this did to my faith, finding time and time again that the claims I had been taught were lies?

Why do you think my time here, on Apolyton, has pushed me further towards Catholicism not away?

And the Christians did just as much to the Muslim world, and does far MORE today given that we keep invading their countries and killing hundreds of thousands of their people (when we're not starving millions more to death). For every religious building destroyed by the Muslims, you can find an equal Muslim one trashed by the Christians. For every killing, rape or wanton slaughter by the Christians, you can find one by the Muslims.

It seems very important to you to believe that this is so. Why is that?

That is what is really sad though about your failure to grasp this stuff. You seem incapable of understanding that in that era basically everyone in a position of power acted like violent psychopaths, because it was about the only way to ensure you held onto power and didnt end up brutally murdered along with your entire family. By today's standards there simply weren't any good guys, and when you try and pretend there were, you end up in these super awkward situations where you're basically having to try and defend things like mass slaughter, rape and wanton destruction, just because it was your 'side' that did it.

I disagree that the 20th century, the century in which 6 million died in the holocaust is a sign of *progress* over the 10th century. More Jews died in the 20th than in all centuries put together.

I couldn't give a rats ass, I think you both believe a lot of primitive nonsense. Why would any of your fairy stories justify the horrors both sides carried out?

Would you give a rats ass if the Americans nuked Mecca?

No you see, I'm not a 'member of the other team'. I'm the one saying the sport is stupid and meaningless. The only reason you keep trying to claim atheists are part of the game is because you can't seem to wrap your head around the idea that to many of us the whole thing is idiotic.

Atheists are a team. Go ask Curtsibling sometime about that. I notice you also did not answer my question about 'meaningful' statements. I think the disagreements involve real actual things, and are not meaningless in the slightest.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're making a classic argument from ignorance. He didn't say something, so you're presuming to fill in the blanks. As for 'legions from heaven' if you believe your god is omnipotent then bringing forth legions from heaven could be done with a click of his fingers, it wouldn't require some existing warlike state. The fact he used the word 'legions' when talking to a Roman, should also tell you something.

These are not new arguments. The Fathers of the Church have extensive arguments concerning this issue.

It's also worth adding that holding yourself to the same standards of behaviour as your god is pretty arrogant. God reserves the right of judgement to himself if you remember, so god being willing to use force if he chose does not give you any kind of license to do the same, any more than you are free to pass judgement.

Which is why I have God-given reason? I thought atheists believed we ought to use our reason and not simply blindly recite what is written.

[kentonio]

Which is why I have God-given reason? I thought atheists believed we ought to use our reason and not simply blindly recite what is written.

This coming from someone who bases their entire moral compass on what some bronze age goatherders wrote in a book two thousand years ago?!!

[Ben Kenobi]

You have me mistaken for an evangelical

[kentonio]

Many would dispute that killing men and women who kill other people is a bad thing. Many would also dispute that killing a man or a woman in the process of assaulting and attempting to kill others is a bad thing. It is not so clear cut as you make it to be.

Many people believe lots of incredibly stupid things, so what?

I defend the Catholic church mostly because the claims against her are rubbish. I'm a convert. I have routinely seen, time after time again that the charges are not only *false*, but generally that the Catholic church has good reasons for why things happened the way they did. I was a protestant ffs. Do you think I ever heard the Catholic side of things? No. Did I take the time to examine what the Catholic side of things actually was? Yes. And many times I found outrageous lies against the Catholic church that had no bearing to what the catechism actually said. What do you think this did to my faith, finding time and time again that the claims I had been taught were lies?

Which makes you an even worse historian than you are a Christian, which is a pretty impressive achievement.

It seems very important to you to believe that this is so. Why is that?

Because its historically accurate. The Muslim rulers of that time were greedy violent *******s, just like the Christian rulers. Both carried out acts that were absolutely horrific by any reasonable standard.

I disagree that the 20th century, the century in which 6 million died in the holocaust is a sign of *progress* over the 10th century. More Jews died in the 20th than in all centuries put together.

So what? Greedy violent rulers had new industrialised ways of murdering more people than they did in the past, that doesn't magically make the old methods of raping entire cities and cultures somehow more reasonable.

Would you give a rats ass if the Americans nuked Mecca?

Unlike you, I'm actually a humanist, so the idea of ANYONE murdering large numbers of other humans is abhorrent to me. Whereas I can't help but suspect that it'd actually give you pleasure, which is quite scary.

Atheists are a team. Go ask Curtsibling sometime about that. I notice you also did not answer my question about 'meaningful' statements. I think the disagreements involve real actual things, and are not meaningless in the slightest.

Why would I give a **** about CurtSiblings interpretation of atheism? The very definition of atheism is a lack of belief, so any attempt to turn that into team thinking is nonsensical. I didn't answer your question about your primitive barbaric beliefs incidentally, simply because I have no interest in turning this into another long pointless discussion about how you justify your fear and hatred of gay people.

[Ben Kenobi]

So what? Greedy violent rulers had new industrialised ways of murdering more people than they did in the past, that doesn't magically make the old methods of raping entire cities and cultures somehow more reasonable.

It means that your argument of my defense of the middle ages as more civilized actually holds up against your own statements.

Unlike you, I'm actually a humanist, so the idea of ANYONE murdering large numbers of other humans is abhorrent to me. Whereas I can't help but suspect that it'd actually give you pleasure, which is quite scary.

Yet you don't give a rats ass about the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Interesting.

Why would I give a **** about CurtSiblings interpretation of atheism? The very definition of atheism is a lack of belief,

Ahh. It's a good thing I have nothing to fear.

so any attempt to turn that into team thinking is nonsensical.

I'm curious how one reconciles humanism with Nietsczhe

I didn't answer your question about your primitive barbaric beliefs incidentally, simply because I have no interest in turning this into another long pointless discussion about how you justify your fear and hatred of gay people

If you don't believe that such a belief is *meaningful* how do you come to terms with your own beliefs in the contrary?

[Kidlicious]

It was SUPPOSED to be easy, in YHWH's grand design, before Satan realized that YHWH would be the unchallenged supreme master over 2 full universes of loyal armies. But YHWH was never playing with a... full deck, so to speak. But we are treading waters that I will cover in my next Chapter of the AAHZ-Thradeâ„¢ so I will stop this point here and get back to your question, trying to be as concise as possible...

To YOU, or me, it may seem easy as we are both loyal and play by THE RULES we believe laid out for us by our respective gods. But some people NEVER understand, and never will. People don't become Angels because they love to sin too much. And people don't become Demons because they are too corrupt and disloyal to anything BUT sinning... and not Satan. They also get reborn several lifetimes, and may get kicked out of Heaven or Hell many times before understanding. This may be your 5th attempt.



Satan does not want rowdy, inexperienced, fragile CHILDREN as grand Demons attempting to destroy the likes of the CHERUBIM!

Plus there are no CHILDREN in Hell, unless Beelzebub gave someone that form. They would be considered UNFINISHED in their trials and be reborn in our universe, unless decided otherwise, and given a FULL DEMON form. But again we are covering ground I will cover in another Chapter of my AAHZ-Thradeâ„¢ so I will stop there.



You're screwed. YHWH may forgive you to the point of not sending you to Hell. But since Purgatory doesn't exist, and not to offend you too much I will stop there and simply say that you might have another express ticket to this Universe... for another rebirth and chance to try again.

Unless YHWH DOESN'T forgive you and kicks your ass straight to Hell where Satan will... EVALUATE you.

I think you covered this, but just to make sure, are you saying both God and Satan want loyal followers?

[Kidlicious]

That is the problem with Protestant theology. There is no way for someone who has committed a mortal sin to be reconciled. God is very clear. Someone who has sinned and repents will be reconciled.

Where did you get this? All you have to do to be reconciled is repent.

[Kidlicious]

No. They would go straight to hell if they committed a mortal sin and were unrepentant.

So Purgatory is for people who have repented, but if someone prays for them they don't have to stay? I guess you better get someone to pray for you, or you get screwed.

[Kidlicious]

Actually, yes they had bibles back then. They call them Vulgates.

As for Crusaders - it depends on your position concerning war and self defense. The Catholic church would argue it is not a sin to fight to protect other Christians who had been attacked by Muslims.

They didn't have bibles, you liar. The Church had the bibles.

And your church said that if you kill a Muslim you don't go to Hell or Purgatory.

[ZEE]

I think you covered this, but just to make sure, are you saying both God and Satan want loyal followers?

Of course. That is the only way to ensure no corruption, dissension, or lazyness in The Great War being waged by the Angels and Demons.

Ben Kenobi thinks that Purgatory will save him and the sinners and give them a free ticket into Heaven. He, and they, will be sorely mistaken when he is reborn again, memories erased.

Purgatory is just a Catholic creation to give "hope" to people and keep them coming back to church to put things in the tithing pan. YHWH is NOT forgiving. In fact he is completely insane. I will cover this topic in my next Chapter.

[Kidlicious]

Of course. That is the only way to ensure no corruption, dissension, or lazyness in The Great War being waged by the Angels and Demons.

Ben Kenobi thinks that Purgatory will save him and the sinners and give them a free ticket into Heaven. He, and they, will be sorely mistaken when he is reborn again, memories erased.

Purgatory is just a Catholic creation to give "hope" to people and keep them coming back to church to put things in the tithing pan. YHWH is NOT forgiving. In fact he is completely insane. I will cover this topic in my next Chapter.

But Satan betrayed God, didn't he? Don't loyal followers choose to follow loyal kings and Gods? Or do they seek someone to betray them?