Catholic Answers

[Ben Kenobi]

Look up the meaning of the word "always".

Ok, I'm asking specifically about the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Was it wrong for Islam to destroy the actual buildings?

[Aeson]

Raping and murdering innocents is wrong. Killing murderers who have killed innocents is not. I would support hanging any crusaders who crossed that particular line.

That wasn't so hard, now was it?

And how about the clergy who called for such massacres?

[Ben Kenobi]

And how about the clergy who called for such massacres?

You mean the Caliph?

yes, it was wrong for the Caliph to call for the massacre of Christians in the Holy Land and the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

[kentonio]

Now I have a question for you. Do you believe that the Islamic destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was wrong?

Of course destruction and killing is wrong. Pretty much every person here has absolutely no problem with blaming murderers and warmongerers for their crimes, regardless of their religion. Where you go off the rails is you can't resist trying to defend the Catholic Church of the past, despite the horrific crimes it commited. Which is ****ing stupid, because most other Catholics are fine with holding their predecessors responsible for actions that were completely contrary to Christian teachings.

It's why we say you're not a real Christian. You treat it like a team sport where you're a rabid fan instead of an actual worshipper of anything meaningful.

[Aeson]

Ok, I'm asking specifically about the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Was it wrong for Islam to destroy the actual buildings?

Of course it's wrong.

[Proteus_MST]

None of whom were Christian at the time.

Bavarians:

Bavaria was nominally Christian by virtue of being ruled by Christian dukes from the 6th century, but Christianization of its population was a gradual process lasting throughout the 7th century and into the 8th;

They were called christians way before Karl Martell

Alemannians:

Alamannia was Christianised during the 7th century

Also way before Karl Martell


The only one of the three where there seems to have been struggle between Christianity and Paganism during Karl Martells time seem to have been the Frisians

[kentonio]

Raping and murdering innocents is wrong. Killing murderers who have killed innocents is not. I would support hanging any crusaders who crossed that particular line.

Quote the part of the New Testament where Jesus preached that killing bad people was good please.

[Aeson]

You mean the Caliph?

Any and all clergy who called for indiscriminate killing or actions which had no moral justification.

[Aeson]

Bavarians:


They were called christians way before Karl Martell

Alemannians:


Also way before Karl Martell


The only one of the three where there seems to have been struggle between Christianity and Paganism during Karl Martells time seem to have been the Frisians

In an alternate reality where Ben is Batman during the Crusades ...

"If there's even a 1% chance that any of them aren't Christian we have to kill them all as if there is an absolute certainty they're Muslims"

[ZEE]

Well. This thrade has DEvolved exactly as I have foreseen. I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Enjoy y'alls ignorance.

[Ben Kenobi]

Of course destruction and killing is wrong. Pretty much every person here has absolutely no problem with blaming murderers and warmongerers for their crimes, regardless of their religion.

Then I'd love to hear you speak of Islam the same way you do Christianity. That seems to be a challenge for you.

Where you go off the rails is you can't resist trying to defend the Catholic Church of the past

What rails? I've stated that Islam invaded Christian areas, destroyed the holiest Church of the entire Christian faith, destroyed, enslaved, raped and imprisoned Christians in those areas since the 7th century and continues to do so today.

All of these are true statements. I'm not sure why you have an issue with true statements.

Catholics are fine with holding their predecessors responsible for actions that were completely contrary to Christian teachings.

Do you believe the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre is contrary to Islamic teachings?

It's why we say you're not a real Christian. You treat it like a team sport where you're a rabid fan instead of an actual worshipper of anything meaningful.

That's a curious statement. Are you suggesting when I state that homosexual marriage is wrong or that sodomy is wrong that these are not meaningful statements?

I see the dispute as one very different. You disagree because you are a member of the other team and believe that my beliefs are false, not meaningless.

[Ben Kenobi]

Any and all clergy who called for indiscriminate killing or actions which had no moral justification.

I see no evidence for the assertion that Innocent III or any Catholic clergy called for the rape and murder of muslim innocents.

[Ben Kenobi]

The only one of the three where there seems to have been struggle between Christianity and Paganism during Karl Martells time seem to have been the Frisians

Then why did you cite them as an example of Martel attacking Christians? That's my point here. I know that things were different later on in Europe but the world of the early 8th century in Europe is a much different place than today. Looking at where he fought and whom he fought, Martel was a champion of the Catholic church, both against the Muslims and the Pagans on two fronts.

There does not seem to be the broad demarcation between the two groups and Christians crusading against them. That is partially your point and mine, you bring up the Northern Crusades, and if you look at the history, it extends all the way back to Martel, and the wars between the Pagans and Christians.

[Proteus_MST]

I see no evidence for the assertion that Innocent III or any Catholic clergy called for the rape and murder of muslim innocents.

"“Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" - "Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His”

Said by the catholic cleric (and papal legate) Arnaud Amalric, when asked how to separate catholic from cathar inhabitants of Beziers, leading to the murder of all 10k-20k inhabitants of Beziers.
Those were no muslims, but I assume that doesn't make it less a murder, ordered by a catholic cleric

[Ben Kenobi]

Quote the part of the New Testament where Jesus preached that killing bad people was good please.

This comes back to the original conflict that I asked earlier. Was the Battle of Tours wrong? If you believe that Christians should not fight back, then yes, it was wrong for Christians to fight the Battle of Tours. If you don't, then you have to explain why.

Why didn't Jesus tell the Centurion that what he does was wrong and go into a long speech on why serving in the army is a bad thing? He does not. In fact the opposite statement that, "one should remain as one is" comes into play here. Jesus also says, "I could call upon legions from heaven". If Heaven were pacifist, why are there legions in heaven? It makes no sense. Restraint from force is different from the removal of force altogether. Jesus talks about this all the time. Do not resist an evil person. Do good to one who oppresses you - do we not have an obligation to protect our brothers and sisters where we can?