Who do you think is the worse Christian?

[Aeson]

Guilt can not be a reasonable thing, from an atheist perspective. It can only be reasonable for a theist perspective. That is, that the person who feels guilty actually believes in moral principles, and not the idea that society functions better if people believe in moral principles. Believing in moral principles in not reasonable. It takes faith to believe in moral principles, something which is a violation of the very core of atheism. If any atheist says that it's good that people feel guilt, then they are saying that it's good that people are not reasonable.

There's no need for God to have morals.

[Aeson]

You don't seem very enthusiastic about defending your beliefs.

You seem way, way too enthusiastic about defending your beliefs ... most of which don't deserve defending.

[Ben Kenobi]

What BK is saying is that there are no true atheists

Uh, I never said that, either. The question, "is Loinburger an atheist?" is different from the question, "do atheists exist?". I think that atheism exists, I just don't believe it is consistent as an atheist to state that poor evangelism is detrimental. Really, poor evangelism is actually beneficial, not detrimental to atheists.

[Ben Kenobi]

There's no need for God to have morals.

Name an example.

[Kidlicious]

You seem way, way too enthusiastic about defending your beliefs ... most of which don't deserve defending.

That's your opinion that my beliefs don't deserve defending. Of course, it's also your belief that your own beliefs don't deserve defending, and I agree with you there. So at least we agree about something.

[Kidlicious]

Uh, I never said that, either. The question, "is Loinburger an atheist?" is different from the question, "do atheists exist?". I think that atheism exists, I just don't believe it is consistent as an atheist to state that poor evangelism is detrimental. Really, poor evangelism is actually beneficial, not detrimental to atheists.

No, there are no true atheists. Atheists claim to believe in using only reason and logic, as if doing so causes all people to come to the same conclusions. Everyone knows that this is not what happens. Reason, as it is used in practical terms, does not cause people to come to the same conclusions.

[Aeson]

Name an example.

If everyone is allowed to kill whoever they want, no one is safe. So we decide as a society that murder is bad, because we all want to be safe. Thus we've defined morality.

You can use any reasoning you want for "WHY NOT DO X?" It doesn't have to be "Because God said so."

[Aeson]

That's your opinion that my beliefs don't deserve defending. Of course, it's also your belief that your own beliefs don't deserve defending, and I agree with you there. So at least we agree about something.

I believe that people shouldn't murder each other. I'm very sad that you think that belief isn't worth defending

[C0ckney]

Sure there is guilt in atheist families. What BK is saying is that there are no true atheists. Everyone believes in God. Saying that you don't believe in God doesn't mean that you don't. What happens is that people harden their hearts, and that makes them stupid (double-minded).

[Kidlicious]

There's no need for God to have morals.

You're evading the issue. Why would you feel guilty for something that you've done? If you believe what you've done is wrong, then how did you consciously do it?

[Kidlicious]

If everyone is allowed to kill whoever they want, no one is safe. So we decide as a society that murder is bad, because we all want to be safe. Thus we've defined morality.

You can use any reasoning you want for "WHY NOT DO X?" It doesn't have to be "Because God said so."

So you think people feel guilty when they murder people because they feel unsafe?

[Kidlicious]

I believe that people shouldn't murder each other. I'm very sad that you think that belief isn't worth defending

Oh is that it? I definitely agree with you. I just didn't know that was your little simple argument. Of course no one here is saying that it's ok to murder people.

But if you would actually like to address the real issue here I'm listening.

[loinburger]

If you feel hungry then Vishnu is making you feel hungry, therefore anybody who claims not to be a Hindu but feels hungry is lying and is actually a closeted Hindu. Do you see how ridiculous that argument is? Because your guilt = Jehovah argument is every bit as stupid as my hunger = Vishnu argument.

Why do people feel hungry? Because people who don't feel hungry have a tendency to not eat and die, therefore we've evolved to feel hunger. Why do people feel guilty? Because people who don't feel guilty have a tendency to commit crimes and go to prison (or in less enlightened times to be killed by the people they've transgressed against), therefore we've evolved to feel guilty. No need for myths to explain simple biology.

[Kidlicious]

If you feel hungry then Vishnu is making you feel hungry, therefore anybody who claims not to be a Hindu but feels hungry is lying and is actually a closeted Hindu. Do you see how ridiculous that argument is? Because your guilt = Jehovah argument is every bit as stupid as my hunger = Vishnu argument.

When did this become an argument about the existence of a specific god? I'm saying that the fact that human beings believe in moral principles is evidence that they believe in the existence of a god that also believes in those moral principles. People could believe that and never have heard of Christianity. The feeling of hunger has nothing to do with this. You do not feel guilty for not eating. Therefore you do not believe that it is immoral not to eat.

Why do people feel hungry? Because people who don't feel hungry have a tendency to not eat and die, therefore we've evolved to feel hunger. Why do people feel guilty? Because people who don't feel guilty have a tendency to commit crimes and go to prison (or in less enlightened times to be killed by the people they've transgressed against), therefore we've evolved to feel guilty. No need for myths to explain simple biology.

Then what you're saying is that if people were reasonable the human species would not exist, because everyone would die. What is reasonable about feeling guilty?

[Kidlicious]

What I'm saying is that guilt causes depression which is not good for individuals. It maybe good for society. But it is clearly irrational for an individual to feel guilt.