What is the appropriate degree of (un)certainty to have regarding the state of somebody's soul

[Ben Kenobi]

You are only explaining why you made the assessment you did.

Well, because Jesus says so is enough for me.

It doesn't matter what reasons lead you to make that assessment

Uh, I should think that the reasons behind my support for something are important.

You claimed you didn't make an assessment of the state of other people's souls. You lied.

Where is my judgment towards any one individual soul? I don't know your current state, and nor do I claim to say so. I'm sorry you don't like Jesus, but he said it. Take it up with him.

[Aeson]

Jesus didn't say he never assessed anyone's soul. You said you never assessed anyone's soul. You assessed everyone's souls to come to a conclusion about how many of them will make it into heaven. You are lying. Stop trying to pretend Jesus is a liar like you.

[Proteus_MST]

I claim no special knowledge, only what the Catechism and Christ teaches.

More exactly:
You claim no special knowledge, only that what the Catechism teaches and those words that are written in the books of the new testament and supposed to have been said by Jesus (in books that have been selected almost 2 millenia ago under the assumption/pretext that they aere the ones that contain words said by Jesus (while dismissing other books who claim the same things (i.e. containing words of Jesus))

(well, may sound like nitpicking, but IMHO it bis important to remember (because, often humans tend to forget/overlook it) that already "quoting Jesus" rests on an assumption (i.e. the assuzmption that that those who selected the books of the bible selected the right ones and dismissed the right ones) and that therefore already "quoting Jesus" includes a faith component)

[Jon Miller]

More exactly:

In the lifetime of those who lived during Christ's life there were books written (including the letter's of Paul). Including all of the ones in the Christian canon (But also including others, Paul/etc refer to other teachings). We have independent (non-biblical) confirmation that the leader's of the early church and students of Christ's students (for example Polycarp) referred to these books. Then much later (200+ years), there was an official 'dismissing' of books that did not agree with the letters of Paul and the letters of the leaders of the church post-Paul.

There were a lot of disagreements, including even the nature of Christ, but that is about interpretation. Not about what Christ's words were.

JM

[SlowwHand]

I'm under the impression that "Whosoever believes in Me will find eternal life". Pretty much takes guessing out of the equation.

[giblets]

I'm under the impression that "Whosoever believes in Me will find eternal life". Pretty much takes guessing out of the equation.

But did he mean it literally?

[Dinner]

Souls are entirely a fantasy belief, since it is a fantasy, you can assign any number you wish. Fantasies are not confined to mundane things like facts, evidence, or reality.

[Lorizael]

Souls are entirely a fantasy belief, since it is a fantasy, you can assign any number you wish. Fantasies are not confined to mundane things like facts, evidence, or reality.

Ah, this explains why JM thought souls are not observables. You're saying they are fantasy--i.e. imaginary. So souls are non-Hermitian and produce non-real eigenvalues. Got it.

[DaShi]

You also have to consider your oversoul and your undersoul.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jesus didn't say he never assessed anyone's soul.

Indeed. I said that Jesus can read hearts and minds and assess everyone's souls.

You said you never assessed anyone's soul.

Yes, presumably because I believe that I am not Jesus.

You assessed everyone's souls to come to a conclusion about how many of them will make it into heaven.

Mhmm, I quoted Jesus Christ directly when he said that few will see heaven. You don't like that because it doesn't jibe with your universalism, a position pretty much 100 percent condemned by the Church. Take it up with him.

You are lying. Stop trying to pretend Jesus is a liar like you.

What am I pretending? Are you arguing that he didn't say what I quoted him as saying? That the Book of Matthew is full of lies about the true nature of Jesus?

[Ben Kenobi]

You claim no special knowledge, only that what the Catechism teaches and those words that are written in the books of the new testament and supposed to have been said by Jesus (in books that have been selected almost 2 millenia ago under the assumption/pretext that they aere the ones that contain words said by Jesus (while dismissing other books who claim the same things (i.e. containing words of Jesus))

I see it as no different as claiming to understand the laws of geometry through Euclid, or reading Herodotus. It is not special knowledge which only I possess. Anyone can read the Gospels for themselves. That is what I mean by the term, which may be different than how you understand the term.

that already "quoting Jesus" rests on an assumption (i.e. the assuzmption that that those who selected the books of the bible selected the right ones and dismissed the right ones) and that therefore already "quoting Jesus" includes a faith component)

Do you believe that Ptolemy wrote the Algamest?

[Proteus_MST]

I see it as no different as claiming to understand the laws of geometry through Euclid, or reading Herodotus. It is not special knowledge which only I possess. Anyone can read the Gospels for themselves. That is what I mean by the term, which may be different than how you understand the term.

Do you believe that Ptolemy wrote the Algamest?

Actually it doesn´t matter who wrote the Algamest ... whether it was Ptolemy or a totally different author ... similarly for other historical works of natural sciences. The content of treatises on Astronomy and other natural sciences (as well as mathematics and engineering sciences) is easily veri-/falsifiable by doing experiments, condiucting scientific observations (or dis-/proving mathematical equations).

The total opposite you have for supernatural claims (like the one of ways to ascend to the "heaven" in christianity ).
There is absolutely no way (for living beings in nowadays times) to prove any of the supernatural claims written in the bible.
Therefore yes, for any supernatural claims written in the bible it should (for a christian) matter a lot, whether it was actually said by Jesus or someone else.
How many christians would, for example, believe in "No one comes to the father except through me" if it turned out that it hasn´t actually been said by Jesus, but that instead the author of John heard it from Claudius Cornus Volvulus, the son of his favorite baker in the Via Agrippina of Rome ... and thought it would be a nice thing to include into his gospel.

[Ben Kenobi]

Actually it doesn´t matter who wrote the Algamest ... whether it was Ptolemy or a totally different author ... similarly for other historical works of natural sciences. The content of treatises on Astronomy and other natural sciences (as well as mathematics and engineering sciences) is easily veri-/falsifiable by doing experiments, condiucting scientific observations (or dis-/proving mathematical equations).

Actually, it does matter whether Ptolemy wrote the Algamest (where it was written), and what data he obtained, and when it was written. Quite significant actually, because we know that he was a compiler, and that some of his stuff was discovered by other people, particularly Hipparchus. The reason he's known today is that his manuscripts survived. And yes, it was significant that not all of his claims were empirically proven. Algamest makes no such assertion as to empiricism.

There is absolutely no way (for living beings in nowadays times) to prove any of the supernatural claims written in the bible.

Not all of the bible is supernatural claims. We can accurately date many of the other events in the bible, and be reasonably more assured of their authenticity.

Therefore yes, for any supernatural claims written in the bible it should (for a christian) matter a lot, whether it was actually said by Jesus or someone else.

It should actually matter for anybody.

How many christians would, for example, believe in "No one comes to the father except through me" if it turned out that it hasn´t actually been said by Jesus, but that instead the author of John heard it from Claudius Cornus Volvulus, the son of his favorite baker in the Via Agrippina of Rome ... and thought it would be a nice thing to include into his gospel.

Not all of Ptolemy's observations were his.

[ricketyclik]

I'm under the impression that "Whosoever believes in Me will find eternal life". Pretty much takes guessing out of the equation.

Is there a corresponding statement about whosoever doesn't believe in him?

[SlowwHand]

John 3:15