What is the appropriate degree of (un)certainty to have regarding the state of somebody's soul

[ricketyclik]

So... No.

[Aeson]

What am I pretending?

That you are Jesus.

I point out you lied about making an assessment. You made the assessment... doesn't matter WHY you made it ... you made it. You can't pawn off your lie on Jesus.

You don't like that because it doesn't jibe with your universalism, a position pretty much 100 percent condemned by the Church.

You're insane. I don't see any valid evidence for heaven (or hell). So why would I think everyone is going to a place that we have no evidence even exists?

[ricketyclik]

I don't see any valid evidence for heaven (or hell). So why would I think everyone is going to a place that we have no evidence even exists?

But there is evidence. Someone wrote it down, so it is true.

[Ben Kenobi]

That you are Jesus.

I explicitly stated that I was not.

I point out you lied about making an assessment. You made the assessment... doesn't matter WHY you made it ... you made it. You can't pawn off your lie on Jesus.

Uh, I quoted Jesus' direct answer the question that Loinburger posed, "do you believe most people get to heaven?" No, I do not. Jesus makes it clear that few will get to Heaven. Am I one of those people? I don't know. Still have a ways to go.

You don't like that answer, so you'd rather accuse me of lying about Jesus, than accepting the truth that Jesus did say this.

I'm actually a little bit surprised you're taking this as hard as you are, did you really believe that Jesus stated that most people will go to heaven?

[DaShi]

Now Ben thinks he's Jesus!

[Aeson]

I explicitly stated that I was not.

Yet you keep pretending that pointing out your lie is actually taking issue with Jesus.

Jesus didn't lie. You did. I pointed out your lie. Jesus has nothing to do with it. Stop pretending you're Jesus.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yet you keep pretending that pointing out your lie

What lie? That Jesus said the following?

Matthew 7:13?

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

?

Seems pretty damn clear to me. Few will be saved, many will perish.

[Aeson]

That is your assessment. You base your assessment on what Jesus said, but then claim you made no assessment. Your claim that you made no assessment is a lie. When I point out you are lying, you try to pretend it was Jesus who I am taking issue with, but it is you, and you aren't Jesus.

[Ben Kenobi]

That is your assessment. You base your assessment on what Jesus said, but then claim you made no assessment. Your claim that you made no assessment is a lie. When I point out you are lying, you try to pretend it was Jesus who I am taking issue with, but it is you, and you aren't Jesus.

So you agree with me that Jesus said that most people will not be saved?

[Aeson]

I accept you are flailing wildly to distract from the obvious lie you posted. Im done trying to help you though. When you get to the pearly gates and they remain shut, remember it's because you hardened your heart and refused to give up your sin (in this case lying)

I accept that is what that verse in the Bible attributes to Jesus. I am not sure how accurate the Bible is in that regard.

[Ben Kenobi]

I accept that is what that verse in the Bible attributes to Jesus. I am not sure how accurate the Bible is in that regard.

Well, then. That's the source of the problem. Do you have any evidence that the bible was a deliberate forgery on your part or it is just wishful thinking?

[Aeson]

No, the source of the problem is that you made an assessment, then claimed you didn't make the assessment. You lied. Regardless of what the assessment was, or why you made it, you lied about making it.

[Elok]

Don't have time to spare on involved response, but please note that neither heaven nor hell, strictly speaking, exists in Judaism. You will find no mention of either in the OT. There's a vague belief current today that there's probably some sort of happy afterlife, but it's not something they stress or even have any kind of firm doctrine about.

Since I'd like to have a semi-intelligent conversation about religion on here for a change, a further note: Islam, like Christianity, was quite big on the hellfire in its earliest phase (don't know about now). Muhammad did not bring up hell at a time when he was in power and wanted to put down the little guy. Indeed, the first Muslims came primarily from the poor fringes of Meccan society, and the doctrine was not intended to keep them meek. Instead they made such a nuisance of themselves that the authorities tried to murder their leader and wipe them out--an even more drastic move then than now, since killing someone in Mecca risked not imprisonment but a generalized blood feud that could kill dozens before it petered out.

A similar story was true of the earliest Christians: Hell as the banner of disgruntlement, not social control. Looking back, post 18 was misleading, and implies that Jews had a meaningful afterlife. The closest they had was Sheol, which is like the dreary afterlife in Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea: a drab, miserable place where nobody is tortured, or happy, or does anything at all. You just dick around for eternity, and everybody went there in the end, no matter what they did. The notion of a really happy, or unhappy, or otherwise consequential afterlife began (in the Judeo-Christian tradition) with Jesus*, who was the opposite of a cushy oligarch. Judaism, to this day, is a very this-life-centered religion. Job complains about his bad treatment, and God's justice is shown by Job getting all his stuff back, with some extra for the hassle.

Now, Heaven and Hell also existed in Egypt and Persia, and probably other places which borrowed from them (yes, it's theorized that Christianity got it from Persia or some such); I don't know how they used it. But the most prominent lasting proponents of hellfire, Muhammad and Jesus, were agitators for social, political and/or religious upheaval.

*Okay, this is simplified; IIRC the Pharisees of the time had a belief in the resurrection of the dead, which the Sadducees rejected due to its lack of Scriptural support. This belief has since atrophied from Judaism, possibly on account of Jesus taking that football and running it to the endzone. But that's just speculation on my part, really I have no idea WTF happened to it. Especially since today's Jews are the ideological descendants of the Pharisees.

[C0ckney]

this is actually a very interesting topic and i have wanted to respond for the last week or so; but a very busy life means that i have lacked the time for anything more intellectually strenuous than calling oredin a racist. i shall try and answer over the weekend.

[Ben Kenobi]

A similar story was true of the earliest Christians: Hell as the banner of disgruntlement, not social control. Looking back, post 18 was misleading, and implies that Jews had a meaningful afterlife. The closest they had was Sheol, which is like the dreary afterlife in Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea: a drab, miserable place where nobody is tortured, or happy, or does anything at all. You just dick around for eternity, and everybody went there in the end, no matter what they did. The notion of a really happy, or unhappy, or otherwise consequential afterlife began (in the Judeo-Christian tradition) with Jesus*, who was the opposite of a cushy oligarch. Judaism, to this day, is a very this-life-centered religion. Job complains about his bad treatment, and God's justice is shown by Job getting all his stuff back, with some extra for the hassle.

Umm, I don't think you've really understood the book. Job lost an entire family.

He responds:

Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.
And he said, “Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return.
The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

And again:

So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and struck Job with loathsome sores from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. And he took a piece of broken pottery with which to scrape himself while he sat in the ashes.

To which Job replies, and rebukes his wife...

Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?”

Later on, and relevant to what you're saying here...

As the cloud fades and vanishes,
so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up;
he returns no more to his house,
nor does his place know him anymore.

Job continues..

Then cease, and leave me alone, that I may find a little cheer

before I go—and I shall not return—
to the land of darkness and deep shadow,

the land of gloom like thick darkness,
like deep shadow without any order,
where light is as thick darkness.”

Again, from Job:

If I hope for Sheol as my house,
if I make my bed in darkness,

if I say to the pit, ‘You are my father,’
and to the worm, ‘My mother,’ or ‘My sister,’

where then is my hope?
Who will see my hope?

Will it go down to the bars of Sheol?
Shall we descend together into the dust?”

Then awhile later Job says this:

‘Swift are they on the face of the waters;
their portion is cursed in the land;
no treader turns toward their vineyards.
Drought and heat snatch away the snow waters;
so does Sheol those who have sinned.
The womb forgets them;
the worm finds them sweet;
they are no longer remembered,
so wickedness is broken like a tree.’

Seems pretty clear to me. Sheol is the pit of darkness for sinners.