So how long will Ben last this time?

[Egbert]

But muslims had lived in Spain for many generations, particularly in the south which first to be conquered and last to be reconquered. That would be about 700 years equating to very roughly 28 generations, or more. I reckon after 28 generations your family has long since become native.

[Elok]

i think you'll find they were carthaginian lands in the first place...

AHEM! They belonged to a now-obscure people we assume were related to the Basques*, who lost it to Celts, who lost parts of it to Carthaginians, who lost all of it to Romans, who lost it to Visigoths, who lost it to Muslims, who lost it to different Muslims, who lost it to a third set of Muslims, who lost it to Catholics claiming some sort of identity with long-dead Visigoths and Romans. FASCIST!

*Assuming we don't count Neanderthals because man **** Neanderthals

[Aeson]

I'm sure Ben understands that farmers being kicked off their farms is going to hurt agricultural production. It's just his hatred for non-whites clouding his judgement. If you say "Zimbabwe" he'll quickly realize how detrimental to the economy it is to kick farmers off their farms. Until you start talking about non-white farmers again of course.

[Kidlicious]

But muslims had lived in Spain for many generations, particularly in the south which first to be conquered and last to be reconquered. That would be about 700 years equating to very roughly 28 generations, or more. I reckon after 28 generations your family has long since become native.

I'm not saying they weren't natives, but Muslims had been trying to destroy Christian civilization for that 700 years.

[C0ckney]

the muslim civilisation in spain and portugal was far more...err...civilised than any that proceeded it.

[Kidlicious]

the muslim civilisation in spain and portugal was far more...err...civilised than any that proceeded it.

Too easy

[Elok]

The peculiar thing about Spain is that the previous regime was not completely extirpated by the Muslims, only shoved up into some northern mountains and then ignored. A fatal mistake in the long run; if they'd treated the Christians there the way they'd treated the ones in North Africa, Spain would have been considered a permanent part of "the Muslim world" instead of contested ground for seven centuries. Albeit the neighboring Christians might have driven them out anyways, once they got powerful enough. The Umayyads were rather vulnerable out there so far from the core of Muslim civilization.

[C0ckney]

yes, but it's fairly understandable. why spend months fighting in the endless mountains and forests of galicia and asturias when the rich lands of southern france are there for the plundering. also, the muslims only became vulnerable when their state broke up into several petty kingdoms, which must have been difficult to foresee for the original conquerors. plus of course, the christian kingdoms played their hand well, with just the right combination of obsequiousness and stiff resistance that allowed them to survive.

[Proteus_MST]

The peculiar thing about Spain is that the previous regime was not completely extirpated by the Muslims, only shoved up into some northern mountains and then ignored. A fatal mistake in the long run; if they'd treated the Christians there the way they'd treated the ones in North Africa, Spain would have been considered a permanent part of "the Muslim world" instead of contested ground for seven centuries. Albeit the neighboring Christians might have driven them out anyways, once they got powerful enough. The Umayyads were rather vulnerable out there so far from the core of Muslim civilization.

They definitely could have ... the army that was defeated by Karl Martell at Tours (which aimed at raiding Tours, deep within the heart of nowadays France) was far stronger than anything the Visigoth kingdom in southern france could muster. And even Karl Martells army was numerically inferior to the muslim one and he was only able to defeat them because his troops had undergone long training in the years before and were disciplined/trained enough, to use Phalanx tactics (which were extremly useful against the heavy cavalry of the muslims)

[Ben Kenobi]

But muslims had lived in Spain for many generations, particularly in the south which first to be conquered and last to be reconquered. That would be about 700 years equating to very roughly 28 generations, or more. I reckon after 28 generations your family has long since become native.

And we're just supposed to ignore the Christians who had their land taken away?

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm sure Ben understands that farmers being kicked off their farms is going to hurt agricultural production. It's just his hatred for non-whites clouding his judgement. If you say "Zimbabwe" he'll quickly realize how detrimental to the economy it is to kick farmers off their farms. Until you start talking about non-white farmers again of course.

Your theory is that Spain under the Catholic Monarchs was similar in economic production to Zimbabwe under Mugabe?

Umm, no. Just no. Spain did very well under the Catholic monarchs, it was probably their economic peak between then and most of the 17th century.

Was there a food production problem? No. Because the Christians who settled there knew how to farm. They did that in pretty much every area of Spain. It was their land, Aeson. That is why it is the RE conquista.

[Ben Kenobi]

They definitely could have ... the army that was defeated by Karl Martell at Tours (which aimed at raiding Tours, deep within the heart of nowadays France) was far stronger than anything the Visigoth kingdom in southern france could muster. And even Karl Martells army was numerically inferior to the muslim one and he was only able to defeat them because his troops had undergone long training in the years before and were disciplined/trained enough, to use Phalanx tactics (which were extremly useful against the heavy cavalry of the muslims)

Yep. Professional army, supply lines, and forcing the Muslims to choose the battlefield they had prepared. Negated their prime cavalry advantage.

However, the thing that saved Asturias was the massive Maghreb revolt. The Arabic muslims decided to inflict the Jizya on non-Arab muslim converts, as well as enslaving them and they revolted. They very nearly took over Carthage and kicked out the Arabs. The only way the arabs were able to save themselves is by drawing on most of their garrison in Spain, and by drawing on Syrian recruits. Even then, they were outnumbered against the Berbers and it was a close shave.

Had they lost in Carthage, they would have lost everything in Spain in a generation, and there was nothing they could do about it. They couldn't supply Spain from Egypt.

After that, they just weren't the same and were always on the defensive. They never regained most of North Africa. Asturias expanded south and the Reconquista began.

Arabs had the habit of posting Berbers as the front line throughout all their battles in Spain, and saving the core of their Arab troops as a reserve.

[Proteus_MST]

And we're just supposed to ignore the Christians who had their land taken away?

One wrong doesn´t correct another wrong ... especially a christian should be aware of that

Driving muslim farmers out of formerly conquered land they had in possession for centuries is just as wrong as driving the christian families out of that land during the initial conquest.

There actually is an equivalent in nowadays world ... and that is the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis upon founding of the Israeli state.
The many palestinians that were driven out by the Israelis (or fled and were prevented to return) lived on their soil for countless centuries and surely had more right to this soil (or at least a proper compensation) than the israelis that the soil was subsequently given to, after annexing it

[Ben Kenobi]

which must have been difficult to foresee for the original conquerors

Eh, they needed taxes and they needed slaves, and once stopped they couldn't get enough from the Christians to sustain their state. So they decided, why not take them from the Berbers?

[Ben Kenobi]

Driving muslim farmers out of formerly conquered land they had in possession for centuries is just as wrong as driving the christian families out of that land during the initial conquest.

It wasn't the Christians who declared war on them.

There actually is an equivalent in nowadays world ... and that is the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis upon founding of the Israeli state.

The Muslims declared war on Israel. They lost. Too bad, so sad. Israel after the partition of the British Mandate did allocate half the land to the Palestinians. They, (and Egypt and Syria) decided they wanted all the land not just half. They declared war on Israel and lost.

Right of defensive conquest is not a bad thing, and this is the same here. It wasn't that the Christians declared war on Islam, rather Islam had declared war on them.

The many palestinians that were driven out by the Israelis (or fled and were prevented to return) lived on their soil for countless centuries and surely had more right to this soil (or at least a proper compensation) than the israelis that the soil was subsequently given to, after annexing it

Given that the Jewish kingdom predated the Arab conquest of 600 AD, I cannot see how one can argue that they had more of a right to the land than the Jews. Also, Israel has way more people now than they had during the Ottoman period.